Academy Anonymous

Oscar Season 2024-2025; Final Predictions; Film Editors Wrestle to Balance the Epic and the Intimate; and a Glaring Netflix Problem in Best Cinematography

• Jules & Joseph • Season 1 • Episode 16

Share episode

On this episode of ACADEMY ANONYMOUS:

  • Film Editing, a possible rough draft of the Academy Award’s Best Director
  • ACE Eddie film editing snubs & surprises: “A Complete Unknown” & “Civil War”
  • “Challengers” using the the sports film genre to its advantage
  • Too many nominations for Sean Baker 
  • Less veterans likely at the Oscars with editors of American blockbusters “Dune, Part 2” & “Wicked” having reaped nominations recently
  • The curious case of “September 5” mirroring the editing snubs of “Spotlight” - are voters watching the film?
  • “Emilia Perez” editor to be welcomed back into the Oscar, “Conclave” editor poised for first career nod
  • “The Brutalist” overlooked at BAFTA & ACE, too long for editors to consider it seriously in this category. Will it doom its Best Picture chances?
  • The films potentially trying to jump from surefire Best Sound nominees to Film Editing nominees
  • Performance & Writing mentions still key for any film trying to crack Film Editing nomination 
  • “Emilia Perez” SNUBBED by Cinematographers guild, behind SEVEN other titles!
  • Netflix streak of Cinematography nominations in jeopardy
  • Can beloved veteran Ed Lachmann go back-to-back this year for “Maria” after last year’s surprise lone nomination for black-and-white “El Conde”?
  • Jarin Blaschke and Lol Crawley FINALLY land ASC nominations for Best Cinematography
  • ‘Wicked” cinematography backlash not enough to stop female director of photography, Alice Books. Can she ride her historic inclusion at the American Cinematographers Society into an Oscar nomination?
  • ‘The Girl With The Needle” & “Nicke Boys” striking visuals land in ASC Spotlight category, but too edgy for mainstream Academy voters
  • Jacques Audiard’s “Emilia Perez” out at ASC. But Jacques Audiard’s frequent DP collaborator finally breaks in with “Conclave” - how’s that for irony.
Jules:

hey, welcome back to academy, anonymous, I'm jules and I'm joseph and let's get back to our deep dive into our final predictions for the academy awards. Let's get back to our deep dive into our final predictions for the Academy.

Joseph:

Awards. Let's get into film editing Right. Film editing Very interesting category because, as we know already, there's a lot of overlap between this category and the category of Best Picture. Very difficult, notoriously difficult, to win Best Picture without a nomination here. So a lot of campaigns are really pitching their films for this category. At the same time, we know from our experience, and from what we've observed as well, that there's a lot of overlap between the category of film editing and the category of best director. The idea of editing sort of being a craft that is again very molded and sculpted by the director, the force that's sort of pushing the movie through.

Joseph:

And you'll see that in the Academy's nominees. And so let's start talking about some of the contenders, and I think one of the best ways to go is by starting to look at who BAFTA had the British Academy listed Onora, Conclave Dune, Part II, Emilia Perez and Kneecap Very interesting list. I think there's one of those films that isn't as much of a viable contender, unfortunately, and that's Kneecap.

Joseph:

So we're looking at more or less four films from here, which is interesting in the sense that for a while now we're on a streak, a two-year streak, where the BAFTA 5 for film editing. Four of those films will cross over and become part of the academy five for film editing and if that's the case, you can make the assumption, since there are only four viable contenders left, that those are the four films to make it in or have locked in a spot at the academy right I think that might be a little bit of a mirage.

Joseph:

I think what we can know from the past two years is, yes, bapta has gotten four titles in, but we also know that BAFTA has never been 100%, and if you look a little bit further beyond the past two years, you'll see that hardly ever is BAFTA perfect. The last time that BAFTA was perfect was the year of the pandemic, and that might be a little bit of fool's gold to sort of be overly confident that those four titles are locked in.

Joseph:

but again, those four titles would be Onora Conclave, dune Part 2, and Emilia Perez Interesting also to note that Dune Part 2 and Emilia Perez both former nominees Dune Part 2. In particular, joe Walker's coming off a win for Dune Part 1. And this would be his fourth nomination, which is quite a bit for an editor. You're talking about sort of now in the vicinity of those William Goldenberg sort of editors who are such pillars of their industry or their craft so you have to wonder if that's something that's going to be working against him.

Joseph:

But I think it's also interesting, now that we're talking about BAFTA, let's look at the bottom five of BAFTA, the other films that didn't get in. Again, the BAFTA long list is extremely helpful in sort of whittling down what are the films that are having the most impact on the campaign trail. And so the bottom five films were Challengers, civil War, a Complete Unknown, gladiator 2, and the Substance. A lot of people, including myself, had pegged the Substance for a nomination here. The fact that it did not get nominated over something like Kneecap should certainly be striking.

Jules:

Because the BAFTA really liked the.

Joseph:

Substance, because you would have thought that the BAFTA, with 11 nods for or 11 long list mentions for the Substance, would have certainly put it here. I mean the Substance. Not only is it a genre film, but it is a very edited film, and so certainly the editing, the editing, calls a lot of attention. Um, at the same time, kneecap was really well beloved, but I would not have figured kneecap to be here over the substance. Possibly both, but not over the substance. The fact that the substance and not get in raises some red flags to me. Um, let's talk about veterans. The one of the editors for gladiator 2 has been nominated for academy awards before the editor from a complete unknown, one of the editors there has been nominated before, and won for their work with for for for ferrari, and that was pretty recent as well 2019.

Joseph:

And then you have the editor for civil war, who actually has been nominated for an oscar for his work in harrow, high water another best picture nominee. The civil civil war, however, is not really in that same position of being a best picture nominee. And then you have a movie like challengers right, which again the editing sort of a character in that piece, and we know that this category at the academy especially has a sort of soft spot for sports films, whether it's cinderella man being able to get a nomination here, or the fighter or king richard. So there's a little bit of a soft spot for sports and again the editing in that film is very much a character.

Joseph:

However, this would be his first academy award nomination and he doesn't have too much of an expansive filmography and luca guadagnino hasn't really had a film break into this category yet. This category, just like all the others, it has filmmakers that it's sort of favors. So the way that makeup artists and costume designers and production designers are always buying a ticket and and reflecting and sort of considering the art that and craft that goes into a tim burton film, editors are really going to consider all the work that goes into, for example, a nolan film uh, schumacheracher Scorsese film and so.

Joseph:

Luca's films have not quite broken in here just yet, and that might be a hurdle that the campaign faces, but the fact that this is one of the few long lists that it got into for BAFTA is a very good sign. And so BAFTA, I think, is a pretty good measuring stick with their streak of four, and, although they're not perfect, I will say that if we examine the BAFTA long list, you'll see again a majority of nominees within their long list. So you have the last two years where they got four BAFTA top five editing nominees into Oscar top five editing nominees. But if you look at a year before that, like 2021, they only got one of their eventual BAFTA editing nominees into the academy top five. The other four nominees did not make the academy top five, but if you look at the long list, you will find an additional three titles that did make it to editing right. So that long list is very helpful right. And again in 2020, they were perfect with their nominees not just the longest, but with their nominees they were five out of five. So if we look at that, it's interesting to start thinking about the titles that did not make that long list right the past three years when they got four out of five between their nominees and their long list and some of those titles were the holdovers, most recently for Kevin Tent, who was a veteran of this category. It was his second nomination, a Best Picture nomination Tar, which was her first nomination in 2022.

Joseph:

And King Richard by Pamela Martin, and that was her second nomination after being nominated for the Fighter. Interestingly enough, movies like King Richard and the Holdovers with Pamela Martin and Kevin Tent, they're sort of waiting this sort of 10 years before they're nominated. Kevin Tent goes from being nominated for the Descendants in 2011 to being nominated for the Holdovers in 2023. And Pamela Martin goes from being nominated for the Fighter in 2010 to being nominated for King Richard in 2021. Again, both times that these editors get in, they get in with their movies being best picture movies, because there is that overlap between best picture movies and best editing. There are films that do make it into best editing that do not become best picture nominees, but they are very rare. That's why it's such a coveted spot to get Now a lot of those titles, whether it's King Richard or the Holdovers or Tar. They did show up at the Guild at the Ace Eddie Awards, the editing Guild.

Jules:

Which is the other really important thing to look at for this category.

Joseph:

Right, and so it's worth taking a look at who those nominees were, and if you start looking at it, they divide their nominees between two categories. It's really interesting because it's important to note that the A's came out super late I think in 2022, super late, I think in 2022. Super late, or in 2023, possibly and as a reaction to that, they came out really early this year.

Joseph:

And so there are some titles that are missing. That sort of piqued my interest. But here were the nominees for comedy. On the comedy side you have Onora Challengers, the Substance, wicked and A Real Pain. Of those five, three were long listed by BAFTA and so the guild sort of brought in the two new titles, wicked and A Real Pain, into the conversation. Interesting to note that of that five there's only one veteran on that list and that's Wicked. The editor was nominated as part of the editing team for.

Joseph:

Tick, tick, boom most recently, and it wasn't even really pegged as a favorite there.

Joseph:

It was sort of a surprise nomination there. And then, if you look at the dramatic side, you have Conclave Dune, part 2, emilia Perez, furiosa and Civil War. And so BAFTA again had three of those titles Conclave Dune, part 2, and Emilia Perez, but they added Furiosa and Civil War. And so BAFTA again had three of those titles Conclave Doom, part II and Amelia Perez, but they added Furiosa and Civil War. Furiosa did not make that BAFTA long list. We know Mad Max was really well rewarded in this category in 2015. It's very, very cool to see it shortlisted here, but I don't know if it's a viable contender. But here you have again the idea that Civil War is being listed on the BAFTA long list and the Guild Award, and he is a former nominee, so that's quite interesting.

Jules:

Right. Well, I think that in making up your list, you should have some sort of combination between keeping in mind how much this category reflects Best Director and also keeping in mind that it should reflect a big chunk of uh, the ace right right, um, that being said, as you were saying, there were a couple titles that were missing. A complete unknown is not there yeah but possibly from the the nominations coming out uh sooner this year. Maybe they didn't get a chance to see it that's what I'm thinking right, and that's why it's missing.

Joseph:

And if you look back, there are uh, there are a number of years where there's a film that gets into this category that's missing from the Guild Right and, if I can speak to that, in 2020, the Guild did not nominate the father and it was nominated at the BAFTA Right. And also, most notably or most notoriously, they did not nominate Spotlight in 2015, a film that would go on to win Best Picture. So I think it's interesting to note that the lack of a complete unknown here. Again, a veteran is not a death sentence, but I think it gets complicated when we start talking about maybe multiple films having missed there.

Joseph:

And there's a certain title that I want to bring up a little bit later, as sort of an outlier.

Jules:

Well, we can bring it up now. That film, which is a very curious case in this category, is September 5. That is not on the guilds for the editors but it's also not on the BAFTA long list, and that's a very curious film because you would think, watching that film, it's very well edited. It's the kind of film that would certainly get a spot here if voters saw the film. It actually has surprised in showing up in certain places, particularly for its editing. It won the Los Angeles Film Critics Association for film editing. It got an Iron Friendly Independent Spirit Award just film editing. As we've been seeing this season um september five has been this really curious case of a film that had a lot of potential but has just managed to show up in little spurts here and there, getting, for example, a golden globe nomination for best picture and that's it, and so this would theoretically be a perfect category to recognize that film. However, its lack of being in either the Guild or the BAFTA long list is certainly something that you need to look at.

Joseph:

Right, but it's not a death sentence either in the sense that, as I said, the Guild did miss the father and spotlight. The father was nominated for a BAFTA and would end up being nominated for an Oscar, and again the editing is such a character in that film. September 5th is one of those movies that you know the editing is very self-reflective. You know they're individuals in broadcast and media and so you know that an editor might be very interested in. You know all these moving parts sort of working harmoniously not just to tell the story but to explore the theme. It's very interesting.

Joseph:

But a film like Spotlight again got shut out of its guild and did not make the BAFTA top five. We don't have a long list so we don't know if it was on that long list. But again, spotlight was able to continue to be the best picture, front runner win best picture and it did get that nomination for editing. So just that idea that you're a film that's being seen, that you're sort of procedural and editing is a big part in sort of keeping the momentum of the story and getting all the facts and telling all the story that in and of itself might be enough for editors to list it, and September 5th has all those things going for it.

Jules:

So it's certainly not a death sentence, except we don't know how many, how many voters are watching it. Exactly, and that's a pivotal piece of the puzzle.

Joseph:

Yeah, that's a huge thing Right.

Jules:

Which, like I said, that that film would make perfect sense here. It's very well edited, it's very well done, um, on a technical front, Um, but that's the biggest problem it's had all season Our people aren't watching it.

Joseph:

The other thing that really hurts is the idea that both a complete unknown and september 5th are off the guild list, and it's not very often that they miss two.

Joseph:

Usually between the 10 nominees for comedy and drama they will have all five nominees. That's usually the case right now. If you do look at this list, I I will. I do say that they added two other veterans with furiosa and wicked, and wicked is a little bit more prominent. But it's also interesting to note that among the editors that are being considered there are a couple of actual writers. Directors right, because you have the editor of Onora is writer director Sean Baker and part of the editing team for the Substance is writer director Carly Fargeau.

Joseph:

Again, I do think that the editors like to have a very well-rounded list, so they like to include things like independent films and things like comedies, whether it's I, tonya or the Holdovers, and Onora sounds like it's really ripe for that spot. The same way that the Substance is such an assertively edited movie that you may think that editors fall in love with it as filmmakers in other categories or in other crafts involved in directly involved in other parts of making the film. The editors don't have a great reputation with sort of embracing that, and I think the last two names that I can think of are chloe zhao for nomadland, who would go on to win best picture, and also coron for gravity. Even though coron was snubbed here for roma, he got in for gravity and even for children of men. And what calls my attention is that both of those films the sort of momentum and energy for Gravity to be the most winning film and probably the runner-up for Best Picture and Nomadland to win Best Picture.

Joseph:

I'm not sure that the Substance or Onora has that energy, on top of the fact that both of those films they're getting in with other nominations below the line, and contemporary films especially. It's so difficult for them to get nominations below the line. If you think of something like Sideways, if you think of something like the early Alexander Payne films, it's really difficult to go below the line. You have to have a lot going for you, and so I do wonder if, by virtue of them being filmmakers that are, you know, competing in screenplay and director, whether or not editors were sort of leave them off the list because they don't have, for example, the sound nominations that come with Gravity.

Joseph:

They do not have the cinematography nomination that came with Nomadland. So I do think that's a red flag for both of those titles.

Jules:

Right. I think that's a really good point and we mentioned it in one of our earlier episodes how the Sean Baker problem of having a seat at the best director lineup as well as a producer for Anora and also being nominated as a writer and then also being nominated as an editor.

Jules:

that's four nominations and one go for Anora, for a director that's never really broken into that academy. One of his films has with willem dafoe for the florida project, but he himself has never. We don't technically often see a filmmaker break in with a film so forcefully right with four nominations. Um, that being said, you know we'll talk about it later, but it is a really prime contender in the sense that this category should include some someone in comedy yeah, some sort of comedic presence.

Jules:

Yeah, um, if you look back, it's it's not often you'll find a list of best editing at the academy where there's no comedy film.

Joseph:

Yeah, I think it's actually almost impossible.

Jules:

Right and considering that, for example, you already have a musical that stands a good chance, you don't need two musicals. Challengers the newness of that editor never breaking out into the Academy yet and not having a super prolific career as a film editor, I think goes to handicap a movie like Challengers, which was qualified as comedy for the for the ace. So yeah, it's a. It's a question mark. If there were maybe more contenders I might be more willing to say oh, yeah, well, maybe Onora sits this one out. But seeing as it's one of the most well, one of the biggest, the prime contenders to get that comedy spot is why I feel a little bit more confident about it I certainly love that it got nominated for the bafta because if you look at a film that was co-edited by its director, reuben oslo and triangle of sadness, got in for its guild in comedy, and it did not get into the bafta

Joseph:

I believe it made the long list but it did not get into the bafta, so the fact that honora was able to show up in both might bode really well for Sean Baker, even without sound nominations or other below the line nominations. Now you bring up this idea of director. I think that's important. We've talked about that crossover and people already are aware of that crossover, and so it's interesting because we have sort of a streak going on between editing and the Director's Guild Award too. The past two years they've gotten four of the nominees from the Director's Guild Award have become Academy Award nominees for editing right, and so the Director's Guild Award this year is Onora, A Complete Unknown, Emilia Perez, Conclave and the Brutalist. And again here we have another title that sort of people have not, unlike kneecaps, sort of dismissed, and maybe set is a less viable contender in the brutalist right, and it's one of the biggest contenders for best picture. It's poised by some people to possibly win this award, but it is not a favorite in this category at all. Right, and we've talked about it.

Jules:

Well, yes, I would say that right now, if you look at consensus, there are quite a bit of people who do think that the brutalist has a legitimate shot in this category. I would say the reverse that people have been pretty surprised at the snubbing that has occurred with the brutalist at the ace, for example, and, uh, at the bafta most recently. But you and I, in a very earlier episode on this season, were talking about how the brutalist stands really had always stood a chance to sort of be snubbed in those places. Because when you talk about a three and a half hour film, you know a film editor is going to look at that and be extra scrutinizing about how much did this have to be a three and a half hour film? Now, I understand that that's part of the ambition and the scope of the film, which is which is which is great but they're gonna ask, where was the editor exactly there's.

Jules:

There's an element to this where, uh, a certain uh group of editors are going to be a little bit more, um, uh, critical about that right, and so you and I were not surprised at all, absolutely not.

Joseph:

When I got to know from the ace, yeah, we thought maybe it was not seen with enough time. Right, you know maybe, again, it came out so early that they just did not have the opportunity to see the Brutalist Again. That editor has been working for a while, especially most recently in a film like Vanessa Kirby's title Pieces of a Woman. So we thought, oh, maybe he's too new, or?

Jules:

maybe I think World to Come no.

Joseph:

World to Come. Know, uh, world to come? I believe so as well. I actually think he worked on monkey man this year as well with dev patel. So we thought maybe it was too the, the guild came out too early, or maybe the editor is too unknown. But then when we saw it missing at the bafta top 10, at the bafta long list, I think that raised a lot of red flags for us well for people you and I were on the money in terms of really, uh, seeing that happen, um, and so I feel like that's a contender that is not going to happen in this category.

Joseph:

The question is I have for you, then, is the DGA, who's been averaging four the past two years. Do you think it's poised to get all four of those other films in, or is it going to be affected by the fact that, again, of the five movies they've listed, one is a less viable contender? So can we really expect 100% of those other four choices to show up?

Jules:

That's the tough part. I want to say that right now, my inclination is that, yes, we will see Conclave, onora Emilia Perez and A Complete Unknown nominated for film editing. I like that there's four from the DGA. I like that there's four from the perceivedga. I like that there's four from the perceived, or what should be perceived, as the top five yeah at the academy.

Jules:

The only one that's missing is the brutalist which got that dga nomination right. Um, I like the idea of including those four, leaving out the brutalist, and having that open spot for someone um, not in the top five rest picture well, if those are your four, you you have three from the Guild, which is a good sign.

Joseph:

Another film from the Guild might be a good add there, because A Complete Unknown was not at the Guild Right. But you and I also talked about this idea that one of the most important things for a film to be nominated here, as we start analyzing the most recent nominations, is this category hinges on a relationship with best sound right so you should have at least one film that crosses over between film editing and sound design, and you can have more than one you could have more than one, certainly, but you need at least one, and you see, for example, that that is sort of the.

Joseph:

The element that edged sound of metal firmly into film editing is that in a year like 2020, the pandemic, pandemic year Sound of Metal was one of the best sound films to put on that list. And the other element that you should be looking at, I think, is writing. Writing and screenplay is a very important foretelling nomination for an editing spot. If you look at all the recent nominees, it's very seldom that you don't find a film that was not nominated for writing. And the other element is performance.

Joseph:

Performance is such a massive part of what an editor does, of how an editor scopes and helps mold a performance, and so, again, finding a title that does not have some sort of performance nominated is also problematic. Now, a fantastic contender is going to have all three. They're going to have a sound element, a performance element and a writing element. But not all films are perfect contenders, but you should at least be pulling in one of those. Whether it's Top Gun Maverick pulling in sound and writing, or Nomadland pulling in performance and writing, you should have a film that sort of gets a couple of those and if you look at that list of yours, those four, I think you have a good cross of that right.

Jules:

All of them show up in acting, four of them show up in director and right now, from our predictions, two of them show up in sound Right Emilia Perez and A Complete Unknown which we're show up in sound Right Emilia Perez and A Complete Unknown which we're predicting for best sound.

Jules:

It's really a question of that last spot and really for me I felt really tempted to put September 5 in that last spot as a film that maybe was a late breaker that if editors see, I totally see them placing it towards the top of their ballot. It's again a film that's very well edited. Editing is a piece of that movie is at the forefront. The whole mechanism of how to create something is at the forefront in that film. So you can't help but think that editors are going to respond to that, appreciate that. The bigger question mark is again did enough editors see it in time? And did enough editors see it in time to elicit this sort of passion vote, while other movies seemed that were already ahead in that regard, garnering this sort of passion, sort of you know, exactly, and so, for example, the Substance.

Jules:

The Substance is a film that I'm not necessarily predicting is going to make it here, but I know it has its fans and I know that there's a passionate block that feels that the Substance would make sense here in best editing. I'm wondering if a film like September 5 even has that going for it right.

Joseph:

Well, here's what a september 5 does have going for it right, which is when you look at the most recent nominees for editing.

Joseph:

One of the best precursors to sort of foreshadow who will get here is the producers guild award, and of the few nominations that september 5 has managed to get the producers guild award is one of them, big one right, and so the number of titles to be nominated for film editing and not garner a Producers Guild nomination are very few.

Joseph:

And I'm talking all the way back to the expansion of Best Picture and subsequently, the expansion of the Producers Guild Award. The only films were the Father, Baby Driver and Star Wars the Force Awakens and Star Wars the Force Awakens. Now, of the three, you know the Father is a Best Picture movie and it had that BAFTA nomination as well to help it get that editing spot and the Best Picture nomination. The other two titles you know the Star Wars team was pegged for a while to get in in 2009 for Star Trek, but there's another movie that brings in the sound element, and the same thing with Baby Driver, another film that sort of uses its nominations in sound mixing and editing to crash that list of film editing nominees, despite not having a writing nomination.

Jules:

Right.

Joseph:

So that's really interesting. Unfortunately for September 5th. While it does have that PGA nomination, we already know it did not qualify for sound and again.

Joseph:

I thought the sound work was pronounced enough in that film and the team has some artisans who were involved with All Quiet on the Western Front. It is a part German production. I thought that would have been enough for it to crack the long list at the Academy Awards. But it did not crack the long list at the Academy Awards or even at BAFTA. And so that's the thing going against. It is that, depending on how you're pitching it. And so that's the thing going against it is that, depending on how you're pitching it, september 5th as a film editing best screenplay nominee. It's very difficult to find a nominee that a film that does that. You know there are films that score just two nominations, including film editing, but the ones that come to my mind are Tick, tick, boom and Into the Wild, and both of those are editing nominations, along with performance nominations.

Joseph:

So if you're not pegging September 5th for a performance nomination, I think you should probably start pegging it for maybe a couple of more nominations than just screenplay, and certainly not a solo nomination in just editing. That's not going to happen, right, right, what about you?

Jules:

I'm seeing those four and right now I'm going editing that's, that's not going to happen, right, right, what about you? Those are the, those are the. I'm seeing those four and right now I'm going to say that, because of the things you just said and we've been saying in this segment, I'm going to switch out september 5 and I'm going to put dune part 2 yeah as my final nominee predicted nominee in this category, I do have three sound people Right have complete or non-immediate pairs Dune Part 2.

Jules:

I still have four directors and I do have, as of now, four screenplays Right and four films that are going to be recognized for acting. So I think maybe it's a good balance of everything.

Joseph:

I think that's pretty fair. I think what's happened with Dune 2, dune Part 2, excuse me over these last few weeks has been very it could possibly be very foreshadowing as to a bunch of nominations that are going to be left on the table come Academy Award morning, oscar nomination morning.

Joseph:

I do worry, for example, that among these list of contenders we have too much of a revisited tone and I know that editors they like to have a little bit of a diverse sort of reach with who their nominees are, and so I don't like that. This would be the fourth nomination for joe walker and that he just won for this for the first part of the same project. I think that that's going to be a turnoff for editors. He is competing this year against someone who he competed against in that year that he won for doom part two, that's the editor of wicked, and I think wicked would stand a very good chance, except that that editor was just nominated for tick tick boom, and he didn't really have a project in between tick tick boom and wicked.

Joseph:

And so does it make sense to be nominating both these sort of spectacle films, films that I don't expect to show up in the screenplay category, certainly not wicked, and possibly not dune 2?

Joseph:

Dune 2 might not even make it into director, and I don't expect to see wicked there, so and and dune 2 doesn't have very many performances. So I do wonder if this there's one factor that will come into play is just the branch's desire to want to nominate new people. I don't want to nominate the editor of dune again for doing dune. I don't want to nominate the editor of wicked again for doing another musical. I don't want to nominate the editors of a complete unknown, because they had just one for um for you ferrari, for for you ferrari. But at least there you'll be able to say well, it's such a different sort of speed and flow than ford v ferrari that maybe it's different enough for you to say I want to reward that again, because I haven't really rewarded james mangled for a musical since 2005 right and so I think all those factors are going to come into play right now.

Joseph:

If I had to pick five, I would probably say I would certainly put in emilia perez, a veteran editor who hasn't been there since Diving Bell and the Butterfly. I would put in Conclave first time nominee, did excellent work on Lady Macbeth. I think he's known enough by now. I think I would actually go with Onora and say that they're going to nominate someone like Sean Baker in editing as well, and then I'm going to go ahead and between all the decisions that are left, I would argue that the ones that make the most sense to me on a gut level are a complete unknown, because it does have sort of that walk the line energy that got nominated here. James Mangold's, really respected here have the DGA crossover writing, acting sound and I need a sound film. And lastly, september 5th, which didn't get into anything but it did get into that PGA, and that PGA has had all five of the nominees except for a few years. I think maybe it's probably foretelling that September 5th will have a good day.

Joseph:

In other categories I'm going to put Wicked as my spoiler would have a good day in other categories, I'm going to put Wicked as my spoiler. You know, even in a year like 1968, where it was, you know, musical was king and you had Oliver and Funny Lady in Best Picture and you had Star and Unsickable Molly Brown and a bunch of other titles, I will say that in 1968, I believe, they only found room to nominate one musical, and so if I'm putting in Emilia Perez, I don't think that I have. Well, excuse me, I'm sorry. They did nominate two musicals. They nominated Funny Girl and Oliver. So maybe Wicked is my spoiler for now and it may very well take that spot over something like Nora. For me. I don't like the fact that he was just nominated for Tick, tick, boom, but I think he would be the one to steal a spot from somebody.

Jules:

Right For me the spoilers. Certainly September 5, and I was going back and forth between Dune Part 2 and September 5, and I'm going to leave September 5 right now as my alternate, all right, well, that's our dive into best film editing, editing our final predictions. And if you want to see our final final predictions, they'll be on our twitter at academy anon all right.

Joseph:

Well, let's dig into cinematography. That's a favorite category for a lot of people and it's also a category that, in the recent days, has had a little bit of a seismic shift. I should say, yeah, I think it's pretty important.

Joseph:

Some recent developments there. Well, let's start with the BAFTA nominations. Right, let's start with who got the BAFTA 5. Again, a lot of crossover between the British Academy and the Academy Awards. And so the nominees at BAFTA were the Brutalist Conclave, dune Part II, emilia Perez and Nosferatu, which on paper sounds like a very solid list. I think I would dare say it's consensus. Do you agree with that, more or less?

Jules:

Actually, there's one film that's missing from that the list you just mentioned. That I think would qualify more as consensus and that's the list you just mentioned. That I think would qualify more as consensus, and that's.

Joseph:

Nickel Boys, nickel Boys. Well, nickel Boys is very interesting because and we'll go through this- but, as we start talking about the films that have actually landed something substantial to sort of substantiate their position as a front runner. Nickel Boys is certainly lagging behind there in almost every category and even something like cinematography Again beautifully shot film. Joe Mofray did a fantastic job there, but like the other techs whether it's cinematography or editing it's possibly just a little too challenging for more conventional Academy members.

Joseph:

But so, looking at this list, I think it's pretty well rounded and, barring the Nickel Boys, I think people have accepted this as more or less the favorite five. However, there are some things to to be aware of. Of the list you only have two veterans. You have greg frazier, sort of defending his previous win for dune part one, and you have jaron back for working with robert eggers and nas. For ratu, jaron was able to get in for the lighthouse. It was the first nomination for a ro Eggers film and it was also Jaron's first nomination. But maybe there's that idea again. As we've said, all artisans and all crafts, individuals, technicians, artists who work in these categories. They tend to develop a sort of shorthand favor for certain filmmakers.

Joseph:

They gravitate towards them, they gravitate towards them. So, the same way that they gravitate towards a Cuaron film for cinematography or an Inari 2 film for cinematography, it's very evident that Robert Eggers' style of filmmaking is going to appeal to cinematographers from now on to the future, and so the Nosferatu mentioned here looks like something that sort of foreshadows what that?

Joseph:

relationship will be like over the next 10 years, and so it's really good for him to get in here. And so, although people are accepting it more or less as a consensus, let's look at who did not get in from BAFTA, because, again, that long list is really important, and I'll tell you why. The nominees that did not get in the long listed mentions were for Onora, which was quite surprising to me. The long-listed mentions were for Onora, which was quite surprising to me. Civil War, a Complete Unknown. Gladiator 2, and the Substance Of the five A Complete Unknown is a previous nominee. Faye Dawn Papamichael's been there a bunch of times, most recently, I believe, for Chicago 7, I believe. And then you have the DP of Gladiator 2, who was the DP of Gladiator 1, got nominated for that. He's coming back for this film made this long list at BAFTA.

Joseph:

Why I bring this up is because the BAFTA 5 for cinematography have been very good at finding crossover with the Academy 5. Last year, four of the BAFTA nominees for cinematography were eventually Academy Award nominees. The year before that, there was three, and in 2022, for example excuse me, in 2021, for example, I believe there was four. In 2021, I think there was four, I'm sorry. In 2020, there was four.

Joseph:

In 2019, there was four, and so the BAFTA sort of averages about four or less four of those nominees, and certainly, if you look further back, they don't get anything less than three right. So we should expect four of those titles to cross over, and at least three and really and really, I think to that point.

Jules:

You know, I think most people feel good about four movies on that BAFTA list. We'll go further into it, but I do feel most people including, I think, you and I see the Brutalist Dune, part 2, nosferatu and Conclave as being really solid contenders in that in the cinematography category. It's really a question about that last spot, which is puzzling question mark.

Joseph:

Uh, curious to see who gets that last spot right and we've always talked about, ever since watching it, how we've had our reservations about the cinematography getting recognized for emilia perez. Again, the last few days have only made this even more of an issue again. We sort of anticipated that, but again. So the bafta 5 are really good at getting at least three usually four in, but with the BAFTA long list, if you examine the BAFTA long list, it's going to give you a couple more hints as to who's ahead and who's sort of being pushed to make that final five crash, that final five. And so if you look at that, bafta gets even better.

Joseph:

Because in something like 2022, I believe, where they only got three of their nominees nominated among their long list, they were one of the few organizations to have listed Florian for his work in TAR right, and no one really expected TAR to show up at the Academy Awards.

Joseph:

And so when you see the Academy Award nominations and you don't see Top Gun Maverick which is a whole different animal as to how you can sort of read that that's going to be snubbed. But when you don't see that and you see TAR and you're surprised, well, maybe you shouldn't be so surprised in the sense that A TAR was long listed at BAFTA and so if you go further into years like 2021 and 2020, if you examine the BAFTA long list, the BAFTA had all five eventual nominees. So it's really good to look at not just who the BAFTA five were, but who the BAFTA backup five were, and so the idea that Enora is there to me raises a lot of interesting questions, because you know who's not. There is a more supposedly tech heavy film like Wicked it's gotten a lot of flack for its cinematography.

Joseph:

At the same time, we'll talk about it. The issue gets even more sort of pronounced when the Cinematographers Guild finally announces their nominees, right?

Jules:

Right.

Joseph:

And so the other really good place to look at is the Cinematographers Guild, and why that is is, for example, what are the few titles that did not make the BAFTA long list or the BAFTA nominees to get nominated for Oscars? The BAFTA long list or the BAFTA nominees to get nominated for Oscars? Well, among the few of them, you'll have Ed Lockman's work last year in El Conde and you'll have the work from Rodrigo, I believe, with Iñárritu, in Bardo, right, right In 2022. And so those are two films that did not get into the BAFTA the BAFTA 5, the BAFTA 10.

Jules:

And so- and still manage to get nominations and they still manage to get nominations.

Joseph:

Lo and behold, they do manage guild nominations, so the guild is probably the best place to find those titles that fail to get BAFTA. That maybe BAFTA is missing At the same time.

Joseph:

Interestingly enough, both of them happen to be foreign language films yeah both of them happen to be made by veterans rodrigo at lockman and both of them happen to be netflix films, right, right. And a netflix film was nominated at bafta in the bafta five, and that's emilia perez. Right, and people have sort of had it in their top five all year long. We had our doubts and then the cinematographers sort of confirmed that right, because the cinematographers nominated Maria by Ed Lachman, along with the Brutalist, a Complete Unknown Conclave, dune Part 2, nosferatu and Wicked, so they found room for both another musical that is not Emilia Perez and another Netflix title that is not Emilia Perez, right. So Emilia Perez is a top five BAFTA nominee that you and I have had our doubts on in this category and did not make essentially a top seven category at the Guild, which is to me a huge barn burner of a red flag.

Jules:

Yeah, that seems like a very uh foreshadowing snub.

Joseph:

And I remember, at the camera image where Cate Blanchett and Rodrigo Prieto were part of the jury and Amelia Perez walked away with one of the top three awards, I remember Rodrigo having some words about how, how, whether he felt the film was in this sort of complicated space of you know, trying to depict these issues and these cultures and these fascinating topic, at the same time very removed from the Mexican infrastructure of making films. Rodrigo, of course, one of the most celebrated cinematographers in the world.

Joseph:

Mexican cinematographer works with Scorsese, the most celebrated cinematographers in the world. Mexican cinematographer Works with Scorsese, works with Iñárritu, so it's very interesting to hear his words there. And the cinematography branch at the Academy is one of the most international and the Cinematographers Guild is one of the most international. And to not see Emilio Perez here is striking At the same time not surprising, not just because of that sort of tricky issue. But you and I have talked about when we saw it.

Joseph:

You know the film sort of lacks a little bit of a character in terms of its lighting design and composition, and that's something that the Cinematographers Guild tends to prefer. On top of that, you and I talked about how the cinematographer doesn't have too many credits. I know that you and I were both big fans of his black and white work, sort of grayscale work on Paris 13th District, which he did with Jacques Audillard before with this, but other than that he hasn't really been introduced to the Guild or to the Academy through a lot of other work. It's very fascinating because jacques ariard's typical partner for cinematography, stefan, is nominated yeah but for a different film.

Joseph:

This year he's nominated for conclave right and stefan, I think, works with jacques and rust and bone right works with him in a prophet more films that they A Prophet, more films that they may have seen. More films that they may have seen. And Stefan this is his first nomination at the Guild and again he got a lot of attention for Jackie, which is a film that certainly Academy members have seen by now.

Joseph:

He happens to be in a Best Picture movie, the Right Package, so it looks like Stefan is really destined to sort of break through this year. But how ironic that he's going to get in exactly in the year that you know his partner filmmaker is going to get in, possibly for directing a picture and it might lose out. Cinematography to Stefan for Conclave, very fascinating. On top of that, you have this whole other layer, because Stefan is also known, as you said, for his work with Jackie, and that happened to be directed by Pablo.

Joseph:

Larraín yeah and here he is again this year with his sort of new DP that he's collaborating a lot with Ed Lachman and they're both shortlisted here at the Guild for Maria right, right after pulling off a surprise nomination which you and I have predicted correctly last year for El Conde right because you know so few times you get to see Ed Lachman working black and white for the entire film that it's just.

Jules:

We knew that was going to be catnip, it was going to excite cinematographers.

Joseph:

Yeah, it was going to be catnip to cinematographers not just black and white, because black and white is very attention calling but also Ed Lachman's fourth nomination with them Right and his previous three nominations all resulted in an Oscar nomination. Yeah.

Jules:

And interestingly enough, two of those are with director Todd Haynes, and if he were to get in with Maria, the other two would be with director Paolo Adain.

Joseph:

Isn't that interesting. And then also, we talked about the camera image where cape blanchett and rodrigo pray toward judges.

Jules:

But ed lockman just had a, you know a retrospective a career achievement award at camera, image right and so certainly he's on this list.

Joseph:

One of the most veteran dps has not won his guild yet, so certainly going to be very tempting for him to steal the win here among this list. Right, and has not won an Oscar yet. Had that wonderful award at Camera Image, very interesting. Here, you know, we talk about that idea of a piece having character. But here's a DP who gives the overarching film sort of a character in terms of composition, lighting, format that he's using, but he's also using 16 millimeter, he's using color. He's also using 16 millimeter, he's using color, he's using black and white, and those are all going to be things that are very striking to cinematographers, so well regarded by cinematographers. Not surprised to see him on this guild list. Maybe a little bit surprised not to see him on the BAFTA 10.

Joseph:

At the same time, we already know he does not need the BAFTA to get in he did it with El Conde, exactly, right, exactly.

Jules:

And I think one thing you wanted to mention was the other award in the Cinematographers Guild, the Spotlight Award. Right Did spotlight a foreign film, the Girl with the Needle. Famously, the lighthouse started showing signs of surprising in this category for the Academy by being in that Spotlight Award the Girl with the Needle a black and white film. We don't have that many black and white contenders on this list this year.

Joseph:

And they love that they seek that out. That sort of resonates with them.

Jules:

They do like that. That film is very stark in its thematic material as well as its visual language Right, and so I can see filmmakers checking it out. Yeah, I do think it's possibly a little bit too outside of what they like to nominate Right For this category. Possibly, if it were a director that maybe they're more familiar with, they might have a better chance of getting into this category. The cinematographer in that film is a very talented cinematographer. I believe he did the cinematography for EO Exactly In 2022. Exactly.

Joseph:

Exactly, I was going to say that going for that DP is not just that he got that spotlight award, but he was just coming off, you know, his fantastic work in EO, which was not black and white, and also that he managed to win the biggest prize at camera image. And we know that cinematographers are paying attention to all the films that competed at the camera image and the films that placed and a lot of these contenders competed, including the buddha list, including conclave.

Jules:

But the winner and again this is voted on by, I believe, cinematographers, I believe it is the winner was, uh, the girl with the needle right and I think that was pretty significant, right, and the other film uh, that's in that spotlight that we wanted to mention was nickel boys, and again, that's a film that's incredible. It's that we wanted to mention was nickel boys, and again, that's a film that's incredible. It's very beautifully shot but, however, its approach to cinematography is a little more um, at the forefront of the film, showy, because it personifies a perspective often for much of the film, and that's the kind of approach that I think is more of a turnoff for some of the cinematographers in this guild of having cinematography be so blatant and, you know, in your face, even though for the film it's a very compelling device.

Jules:

But for them I think that they're going to be more turned off by that than turned on, I agree, I agree.

Joseph:

I think if you want to hold out hope for Jomo to break into that five and, you know, solidify that idea of being in the five consensus, it was great to see him included here in the spotlight section. Again, it's a very experimental work. It just so happens that if you look at the history of this category, they tend to like more conventional movies, even when they go for movies that are, you know, shot on 70 millimeter. And the Boudalist, you know, is really trying to push the idea of the Vista vision and I think it's certainly a lock for a nomination, or very likely.

Joseph:

You can't forget that in 2012, when the Master was shot on 70, they still left it off the list because it's a very opaque sort of film and they really like, you know, a storytelling that's maybe a little bit more conventional, so I'm not sure the nickel boys will be able to make it in here but maybe one film that kind of bucks.

Jules:

That trend is, interestingly enough, the lighthouse oh yeah which is not a film that you would think they would put on and think well, you know this is very, uh, conservative, right, um, but the black and white aspect of that film is so, you know, pronounced Right that I think had a big hand in having it included in the list.

Joseph:

And maybe that sort of goes to show that, like if they buy a ticket for your film thinking this is going to be something weird, so I just want it to look beautiful as it is being weird, they're okay. But if they see you're a color film and they say, okay, well, why doesn't this make sense? Or?

Jules:

why isn't it?

Joseph:

more conventional, or why can't I understand a little bit better? Well, anyway, I think those are all factors. Certainly also experience and history are factors. So you know, congratulations to the DP of the Brutalist, Lowell Crowley, who's been working for a long time and has actually been included, I believe, in this spotlight section. Finally got his first nomination in the guild among the best films of the year best cinematography of the year, and the same goes for jaron right, because jaron didn't make the list for the lighthouse in 2019.

Joseph:

He made the spotlight award, so it's really promising to see joe mouffre. Yeah, and I believe um michelle, or michael for a girl with a needle, because it just shows that a sign of things to come.

Joseph:

It's a sign that they will likely going to have very strong work that is going to be included, uh, in the category of best cinematography of the year. But so let's talk about the musical that the guild did include, that that ran behind bafta, ran behind onora and it ran behind the substance, and that's wicked and wicked has been hotly debated ever since it's come out about whether it was shot well or whether it was shot poorly. Right, whatever you want to say about it, here it is, and it is not just nominated, it is nominated before Amelia Perez is nominated.

Jules:

Right.

Joseph:

So what are your thoughts on that?

Jules:

I think it's a striking inclusion. You know I'm not one who thinks that. I'm someone who agrees with some of the feelings out there about how well that film was shot visually, in a visual sense. However, I think something that benefited the inclusion of Wicked is that it's a female cinematographer, and I think that this guild, this branch, has an interest in trying to be more inclusive, which I think is great, and I think that might have been something that they were considering when they nominated Wicked for for the guild, I agree, and I think it's also their way of sort of supporting the cinematographer who has done good work.

Joseph:

She shot in the hide. She shot TikTok excuse me, Tick.

Jules:

Tick.

Joseph:

Boom, she's shooting Wicked both parts, and so it's sort of this idea. I thought that was sort of like she did a very good job. If you have any criticism for what the concept? Was of the movie, that's a criticism you have to take up with the director and the producers and not the cinematographer exactly cinematographer executed as asked right.

Joseph:

Um. Now the other factor we need to talk about, because it gets so complicated. Why? Because emilia perez was supposedly a consensus pick. That is not even a top seven pick among the guild, and the net Netflix movie that the Guild chose is Maria. The BAFTAs didn't even include it in their top 10. And if we're talking about a musical usurping Amelia Perez, well here's a musical that didn't even make the top 10 at BAFTA, and so why I bring that up is because it's very interesting. You know the moving parts that are going around here between these different movies, but one thing that has been consistent is Netflix being a factor in this race since 2017.

Joseph:

That's even before they broke into Best Picture when they got Rachel Morrison in for Mudbound, first female cinematographer, I believe, to be nominated. So just that idea that Netflix has developed a reputation for being a house, a studio that sort of puts up really good cinematography work. The Guild did not include it for their perceived favorite for Best Picture.

Jules:

But they did include it. They did include it for another Netflix option.

Joseph:

Exactly, and Netflix has been known to get two movies in here, and at one point people were predicting Maria and Amelia Perez to sort of show up. I don't think that they have ever been absent of a movie. Perez to sort of show up, I don't think that they have ever been absent of a movie. Is this a year, possibly, where they're absent Because there is not enough support beyond the guild for Maria and Ed Lockman would have to be doing these nominations back to back. He just got nominated for El Conde with Pablo. So is there enough difference in the work? Is the work?

Jules:

good enough?

Joseph:

Is the movie good enough to nominate Ed Lockman with Pablo again, and vice versa? Is there enough support within this guild for a movie like Camila Perez of cinematographer who's just starting out? Jacques Audillard is not necessarily the filmmaker who's been nominated at the guild a bunch of times, so it's not like the guild is in love with his work or has spotlighted his work a bunch of times, so that could be a factor here too. Is that he's not, you know, a spielberg who's?

Joseph:

always gonna show up in this category, right? So it's very interesting to think about. You know, is netflix going to keep that streak alive? I certainly don't think that two is within the realm of possibility, but I think that it's within the realm of possibility that there is none.

Jules:

Right, I completely agree. I think that's something that you have to be paying attention to.

Joseph:

So, with that said, who are you thinking right now for your final five predictions?

Jules:

Well, I have the four that I feel very comfortable with that I think most people do the Boudalas, nosferatu Conclave Dune, part 2. And that last spot I'm going to go with the stat that ed lockman has never missed when he's been nominated by his guild. Add to that that would be a uh netflix spot that wouldn't be going to uh emilia paris, which got snubbed at the asc by the asc, and I think that's significant, um, and I think that it'll be ed lockman spot in that fifth spot, I believe.

Joseph:

I think that I agree with you of all the options, between Amelia Perez, between the idea of a Netflix film not surviving here and Netflix not coming out with any nomination, between the idea of Wicked sort of being able to overcome it, being at best 11th at BAFTA, between all these ideas also Fade On Papa Michael, nominated relatively recently for his work on Trap Chicago 7. Between all those elements, I think that what's in the cards is the Brutalist Conclave Doom Part II, Nosferatu. That's two newbies, that's two veterans. And then the last spot goes to Ed Lockman.

Joseph:

back-to-back nominations for paula rain films, having had that great moment at camera image where they gave him that career achievement award, so I think that that's probably the best case scenario that we're going to see happen if there is a spoiler right if the spoiler, the spoiler for me would be a million powers making it interesting because the spoiler for me is going to be the other musical.

Jules:

It would be wicked making it in right that would be very surprising I would.

Joseph:

I would be wicked making it in Right. That would be very surprising. I would be very surprised. But the same way you said, ed Lockman has never had a Guild nomination that did not result in an Oscar nomination. That's very well put, and he's been working for so many years. But has the Guild ever nominated a female DP without that female DP being able to then be nominated for the Oscar? Granted, they haven't been doing it, certainly not long enough, not as long as they should have been doing it, but I think it's a very promising sign for the DP of Wicked.

Jules:

Right, that's a really good point. Well, that's our dive into our final predictions for Best Cinematography.

Joseph:

Okay, well, that about covers it. Thanks for joining us today on Academy Anonymous. I'm Joseph.

Jules:

I'm Jules and it's been a pleasure. The music on this episode, entitled Cool Cats, was graciously provided by Kevin MacLeod and incompetechcom, licensed under Creative Commons by Attribution 3.0. Under Creative Commons, by Attribution 3.0. Http//creativecommonsorg. Licenses by 3.0.

Joseph:

Disclaimer the Academy Anonymous podcast is in no way affiliated or endorsed by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.