Oscar Season 2024-2025: Recapping an Eventful Oscar Night; The Good, the Bad and the Ugly of the Oscars Telecast; Surprising Wins and Shocking Snubs; Sean Baker makes history; “Anora” is Queen and NEON is on top of the mountain, again

On this episode of ACADEMY ANONYMOUS:

• Oscar Sunday post-mortum
• Conan O'Brian takes his Oscar swing
• Musical performances - well executed, but arbitrary and favoritist?
• Supporting favorites stay perfect - category fraud a major advantage?
• Latvia’s FLOW surprises! And the telling connection between Animated Feature and Animated Short winners!
• WICKED makes Oscar History in Costume Design! But did it fall short of its potential wins?
• THE SUBSTANCE makeup controversy? 
• Screenplay wins spotlight a battle between ANORA and CONCLAVE - New Academy vs. Old Academy
• Pesky short films prove difficult for any/every Oscar predictor
• Film Editing STILL key to securing Best Picture 
• IN MEMORIAM - Gene Hackman, notable snubs and where’s David Lynch’s tribute?!
• DUNE, PART TWO doubles up wins and proves more liked than slight nominations suggest
• I”M STILL HERE leads Brazil to historic win! EMILIA PEREZ can’t overcome Mexican controversy
• Adrien Brody proves SAG win optional 
• Sean Baker defends movie theaters!
• Unpacking Demi Moore’s loss, Mikey Madison’s “upset” and Fernanda Torres’s shortcoming
• A new Best Picture winner! 
• Final Takeaways - stats that survived, forecasting future trends, Cannes is King and Oscar voting body in transition

Chapters

• 2:43 Opening Wicked Musical Number and Conan O'Brien
• 6:31 Supporting Actor/Animated Feature/Animated Short
• 20:07 Costume/Original Screenplay/Adapted Screenplay/Makeup
• 25:53 Bond Tribute
• 29:23 Editing/Supporting Actress/Production Design
• 40:52 Original Song/Documentary Short/Documentary Feature
• 47:44 Sound/Visual Effects/Live Action Short
• 57:34 In Memoriam Tributes
• 1:03:10 Cinematography/Foreign Film/Original Score
• 1:06:44 Best Actor/Adrien Brody's Speech/Timothée Chalamet's Loss
• 1:19:32 Best Director/Sean Baker Makes History
• 1:22:37 Best Actress/Mikey Madison Is Queen of The Night/Demi Moore's Predictable Loss/Fernanda Torres Too Far Behind To Close The Gap
• 1:48:51 Best Picture/Anora Clobbers The Competition/Rising Trends Within The Academy
• 1:52:26 Final Closing Thoughts On A Chaotic Awards Season/Lessons Learned/The New Academy/Transitions and Crossroads

Transcript

Jules: 0:15

hey, welcome back to academy, anonymous, I'm jules and I'm your co-host, joseph and on this episode we're going to be recapping, finally, oscar, oscar night, the Oscar winners, the ceremony, giving our thoughts about how everything went down and sort of marking the end of this journey, which has been the 2024-2025 season.

Joseph: 0:38

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think a lot of things we thought were going to happen did occur. Yeah. I think some people were surprised at some of the outcomes and then some things we were hedging our bets on did not pan out.

Jules: 0:50

Pan out, unfortunately but I want to say that we at least saw a big miss coming and we're going to get to that when we get to the best actress category. I think a lot of people were shocked by that. Yeah, at least on social media, it seems. But that was if you listen to our previous episodes, you know not too difficult to see that that was going to happen, right, ultimately, our call, you know, was false. It was, you know.

Joseph: 1:15

Yeah, not right I wish we could have capitalized on the the sort of prediction we had that definitely wouldn't be able to sort of climb up the mountain yeah, and overall there were 23 categories and we got five categories wrong some of the toughest too.

Jules: 1:32

I will say yes, I will say that are so tough I will say I was pretty happy that we got one right that most people got wrong and that was editing. Yeah, um, we'll get to that, um, and so you know, five wrong out of 23, that puts us in the top five percent more or less derby uh, which is not bad, but it's short of our, of our goal yeah we wanted to be in the top 50, top 25 of gold derby.

Jules: 1:58

That's always our goal, our goal is to, you know, for lack of a better, you know way of it, our goal is to win and uh, we, we did it this time. I'm, you know, pretty uh frustrated about that. But five wrong in the category, I mean in the in the, you know race overall, and, uh, top 5% of gold Derby.

Joseph: 2:20

Yeah, it's not bad.

Jules: 2:21

Not bad.

Joseph: 2:28

Hopefully next year we get even closer to that goal of, uh, top 20, top 25, I mean, as we talk about it, we'll see that there are just some categories that are just so difficult to get right. Um, but sometimes that's a virtue too, you know yeah, well, we'll see.

Jules: 2:39

I mean, I'm really hoping we make an improvement for next year. So, um, the night started off with the cynthia rivo and ariana grande uh tribute. I thought that was a high note okay for me. Honestly, the production of it was very nice, was very lovely. Obviously, those are two powerhouse vocalists, so so that was that was wonderful to see. But I still have an issue with highlighting a particular film.

Joseph: 3:05

The favoritism.

Jules: 3:06

Yeah to open the ceremony. The blatant favoritism. Yeah. The sort of obviousness of having a huge, financial, successful film be the sort of opening of the Oscars, kind of relegating the rest of the nominees to like second class almost.

Joseph: 3:22

Yeah, it could be a little distasteful sometimes.

Jules: 3:24

I don't like that. Again, wicked ended up winning two Oscars out of its 10, which I think is a pretty low haul for the 10 nominations it had. So, even though it was the most popular film, it was not, you know, the most awarded film of the night.

Jules: 3:40

And so I just don't, like, you know, spotlighting one particular film because that just happens to be the film that the general public might have seen the most. So even if the production came out well and it was well designed and well executed, I just generally I think that's distasteful, I think it's kind of corny, I think it's kind of the blatant favoritism it's kind of. You know, the blatant favoritism sits poorly with me.

Joseph: 4:07

I, I don't like that I mean, it's not surprising to me, right and they do it all the time, yeah but I do think it was well executed and I think one thing to talk about as we go through the ceremony is just the idea that the oscars, I think, is the first stage to launch a campaign right and the campaign for campaign for Wicked Part 2 for good. Yeah, whatever you want to call it yeah.

Joseph: 4:29

Has officially started. And I think it started on a high note, right In terms of that performance. So I think that that's, if you're Wicked or Universal, it's a good way to start your campaign and hopefully we'll touch upon that through the rest of the night.

Jules: 4:43

Right campaign and hopefully we'll touch upon that through the rest of the night. Right, so it came out. It came out very. It was very well done, but again just the favoritism I I don't like. And um, conan o'brien with his uh, he's a sort of the the new uh was the mc of the night. The host uh, it's his first time hosting yeah I thought he did okay.

Jules: 5:02

Know, I thought most of his jokes landed, but there was something overall about the ceremony that I felt a little stale, you know, um, sort of, uh, a little sloppy, a little rushed. I don't know if you felt that way. You know I, like the show, certainly had a mandate this year of going, you know, not overdoing the time and finishing on time, and so I certainly noticed that it was a faster ceremony, it ended faster, it felt like it ended faster but it started earlier too.

Joseph: 5:35

No, yeah, it started earlier. That was the best decision. Everyone anyone took all night right. It was that decision right and um.

Jules: 5:41

So I think that panned out for them. But overall the ceremony to me felt a little, a little bit flat I don't know about you if a little stale again, really kind of put together, um, a little sloppy, especially when we get to the um in memoriams and oh yeah, sort of tributes that were being that were being held.

Jules: 5:59

Um, you know the supporting categories getting you know the supporting categories, getting you know one, the presenter, the winner, to sort of speak on the other nominees, but in the lead categories they get clips, you know. So something about it felt unbalanced and just kind of rushed.

Joseph: 6:15

There were some awkward production decisions, but I mean, as far as Conan was concerned, I will say that I enjoy his humor and so I found him to be a suitable host. I'm not going to say that you know he's anything really special, or the best host ever, but I thought he did a very good job and I would like to see him again.

Jules: 6:32

Okay, segwaying into best supporting actor, kieran Culkin. No surprise, that was a very obvious winner.

Joseph: 6:40

An anticlimactic way to start the ceremony, in my opinion, the one category that everyone's you know very sure of.

Jules: 6:46

I think that's why it usually starts with the supporting category and I think they usually try to make it the most obvious supporting category.

Joseph: 6:54

I mean to their virtue. I think that Kieran Culkin, you know, delivered the charm and sort of quirky, awkward energy he has and the room ate it up and as an audience member from. You know, on the other side of the tv you ate it up, and so I think that was a successful choice. Um, the other thing we'll talk about, I think, is so they presented the nominees. Robert downey jr. Um, you know he's talking about all the nominees, but they don't get clips and so very early on.

Jules: 7:20

It dawns on you that the acting nominees are not going to get clips and I think that was a controversial choice right, because some people love, some people love clips, some people like specific tributes from different actors, right? You know, it's sort of.

Joseph: 7:32

I think most people like clips, though I agree, I I would bring back the clips and you'll see that we're going to see an even more controversial decision to include the clips for lead performances. But, anyway, in the supporting performances they withheld the clips. I will say that I was kind of touched by that moment where Downey Jr started talking about Jeremy Strong only because earlier on in the show they alluded to the idea that Jeremy Strong was in the stands when Downey Jr was first nominated for chaplain.

Jules: 8:01

And you can sort of tell that when Jeremy Strong for those words he was moved, that wasplin, yeah. And you can sort of tell that when Jeremy Strong for those who weren't, he was moved, yeah, that was touching.

Joseph: 8:07

And you know we've had this whole season of these two sort of succession actors. I don't think that Jeremy Strong was upset at Kieran Colton winning I just think he would have preferred to win himself.

Jules: 8:18

No, no, I think he just has you of straight face. Um, I don't know. Yeah, no, I do think so and I do feel like kieran, if I remember correctly in the speech, made it a point to you know.

Jules: 8:30

Point out jeremy strong particularly, you know, because they have that succession connection and they've worked together for so many years, and so I thought that was also nice. And back to your point, I thought of the four acting winners. I think kieran might have had the speech I most liked. I know it was pretty breezy in his way.

Joseph: 8:47

All I remember was four kids.

Jules: 8:51

That's really the only thing I took out of it, yeah, but you know it was self, it was. It was, you know, sort of in his way, self-effacing and, you know, charming and quirky, and I enjoyed it and I felt like it played well in the room. I know there have been some controversial takes on Twitter, which have been all week.

Joseph: 9:07

Have there I haven't heard those.

Jules: 9:09

Yeah, some about what he was commenting about wanting kids for his wife and whatnot.

Joseph: 9:15

Having bought more kids with the trophy. Exactly, yeah, I thought the best there's going to be a response by one of the winners. I thought that was grade A win. The winner for live action short film?

Jules: 9:27

oh yeah, people, people talk about that no, actually people have been critical of that as well oh really, oh yeah so so, yeah, you know, uh, twitter has been going, you know, pretty crazy with. You know hot takes film twitter yeah post, post the ceremony, so anyway, you know. So I thought that the speech landed well.

Jules: 9:44

And it was like, like you said, it was a nice way of starting the ceremony, you know, and it was, it was charming, I thought. And so that was Kieran Culkin winning, and from there we moved on to the animated feature category.

Joseph: 9:59

Which was fun.

Jules: 10:00

Which was fun because it was fun in the sense that it was a little bit of a surprise it was.

Joseph: 10:07

It wasn't the favorite which was the wild robot, which is the film. It was, yeah, it was the film we predicted to win.

Jules: 10:11

We were wrong, so in that way it wasn't fun that we got that one wrong.

Joseph: 10:14

Yeah, we sort of started thinking, damn, we must have, might have gotten a lot wrong, right and so that was uh kind of uh frustrating for me personally, but very happy for flow.

Jules: 10:23

Flo Lavia made history.

Joseph: 10:25

It's great to see that Flo won that. Lavia made history, you know. But let's also like spend some time talking about the idea of winning an Oscar. We talk about it all the time. It's momentum versus stats. In the case of Flo, the momentum died a little bit right Because it lost that BAFTA. Wild Robot had won so many things, including the Pga and the annie awards. Up to the lead up here and um watson gromman was maybe we theorize going to take away votes from flow. At the same time, we had sort of discussed how no animated feature was able to crack sound, let alone an animated feature from dreamworks cracking sound and score along with animated feature and then lose this race and so right.

Joseph: 11:08

I don't know where the wild robot lost this race, but if you're the campaigners or if you're dreamworks, you really have to be sort of uh, considering where something went south right you know the idea that this young director won for flow, although he's very deserving you know that he's able to sort of cross a finish line that I'd said more reputable filmmakers haven't yet, you know, like the French filmmaker Sylvain Chaumet or the Irish, I believe, filmmaker Tom Moore.

Joseph: 11:39

It just kind of shows that how successful Flo's campaign was and that maybe there was a I don't know if we had thought that there was too many international choices and that would take away from flow maybe flow had the benefit of being what we saw, a pattern of which is a film without dialogue, one of two animated, future animated films to win, without dialogue prevailing over its competition maybe the history of it was really enticing maybe because it's it's latvia which has never claimed a prize here in any category right.

Joseph: 12:12

Um, I don't know where it went. Right for flow. I'm I'm glad it's the winner.

Jules: 12:17

A lot of people are sort of theorizing that we've entered this new chapter within the academy, that this win following the win for uh right miyazaki and the boy in the heron could signal that the academy wants to embrace more international fair, maybe more mature right there, right possibly right, and I think that's a point that we're gonna maybe bring up as we we discuss what happened over the night, in that you know, it's clear that the electorate of the uh academy awards has really changed right and has really evolved and and evolved into something that's sort of like a new beast, right, um, which is exciting and also, you know, a little bit terrifying if you're an oscar predictor and you know just, the landscape has changed so much Right and it's harder to see.

Jules: 13:09

You know where this new electorate is going to place their passion Overall. You know, throughout the night it seemed, you know from several of the winners that you know it's certainly not the academy that it used to be, right and so stats, and our show is largely built on stats Right and so stats, and our show is largely built on stats, right, stats only take you so far. Right.

Jules: 13:28

So we'll maybe touch up on that, as we keep talking about the show.

Joseph: 13:31

We had maybe suggested also that on this particular Academy Awards we may see more of an international vote. Right, I don't know if we're going to stick with the idea that that's what we saw Right. But I agree with you we're definitely seeing a new sort of Academy electorate which isn't just going to vote in the most money-making animated feature, the animated feature.

Jules: 13:51

they took their kids to, or the most popular film.

Joseph: 13:52

yeah, yeah, exactly.

Jules: 13:53

That was followed right then and there by Actually. I just want to point out something I forgot to mention. It was pretty funny when Conan O'Brien was in his jokes how he mentioned the call Sophia Gascon tweet. I thought that landed. Pretty funny yeah.

Joseph: 14:09

I agree With the vulgarity. You tweeted what? Yeah, no, I agree.

Jules: 14:15

And it felt appropriate let's all mention the elephant in the room, while still kind of including her in the joke a little bit, and I was happy to see that she still got an applause from the room. So that was a cool way of handling a tricky territory, I agree, even though I did learn that she sat apart.

Joseph: 14:34

I was about to ask you that, yeah, that she sat apart from the Emilia Perez party yeah. Of course, which I think was kind of shady. I mean to have her sit apart, but I I kind of got that feeling when they cut away at her. Yeah, yeah, um yeah but I agree with you, I think it was great to have her there. I think it was they. They navigated that tricky territory well and yeah, it was good, it was great to see her there because she sort of earned her spot yeah, yeah, but back to the categories.

Jules: 15:03

The next category announced was animated short, exactly, which we also got wrong.

Joseph: 15:08

So it was back to back wrong and I thought, wow, this freaking sucks and we couldn't really comment on this category, right, yeah, but we were, we did have the privilege of seeing all the nominees and they were all oh, we love, yeah, then the animation category, the short for short film was wonderful.

Jules: 15:24

All of them were great.

Jules: 15:25

We urge you to see them all, yeah my personal favorites were Beautiful Men and Wonder to Wonder. I thought they were fantastic, but I also really loved, loved, loved, yuck. I really liked Magic Candies and I really liked In the Shadow of Cyprus, and so it was a really beautiful category overall. I had my money bet. I had my bet on that. It was going to be yuck, um, you know, and that it's sort of you know, qualified as that charming, you know, um, somewhat innocent, um animated short that they usually go for it. It was really well done. However, you know we had talked about a little bit before showing our final predictions on Twitter that animated shorts that are a foreign language don't tend to do so great in this category, so I think we took that for granted a little bit. Yeah, and the short that ended up winning was actually a short that has no dialogue. Yeah.

Jules: 16:26

And I think that greatly helped in that film prevailing right. It also was a short that was dealing with a more serious subject matter of trauma and ptsd um, so I also think that that helped yeah um also the the background of the artists.

Joseph: 16:42

Yeah, I mean I think we saw that there's a preference for those English language animated shorts. It is a foreign short, produced in Iran, even though it's dialogue-less, and we kind of thought that the advantage of that short, which is about 25 minutes, almost half an hour, the short, I believe.

Jules: 17:02

One of the longer shorts, one of the longer shorts dealing with a more serious topic.

Joseph: 17:06

But one of its advantages, I think that we felt was the idea that voters were going to see it and see that it had no dialogue and so it would stick out from the other four nominees and also see that or sort of take for granted, or sort of assume that because it has no dialogue, it doing the most right visual storytelling right. That's the way they were going to feel and that's why you and I were sort of, after seeing it, thinking that it was a strong challenger right you know I agree with you.

Joseph: 17:33

I sort of graded my gut here. My gut said that yuck had all the, all the things that yeah, all the, they checked all the boxes to appeal to them. But overall that sort of pattern of them choosing those English language animated features, you have to go all the way back, I think, to 2013 or 2015,. Bear Story, which actually I think is dialogue-free too, even if it's produced in another country.

Joseph: 17:57

But, those filmmakers from Iran. Something that else might have helped them was that the two filmmakers responsible I believe their co-directors on it they were involved so heavily in the production. Right, they were right. They were on the creative side, the editorial side, the storyboarding side. So I think maybe voters saw that I wanted to reward that.

Joseph: 18:19

I think it's an opportunity to sort of lend a spotlight to the Iranian animated film infrastructure and sort of you know lean their support to sort of developing that country, developing the animated film scene there. So I think that all that might have been part of the decision.

Jules: 18:38

Right. I would have loved a win for Beautiful man, which I thought was just great, and for W Wonder to Wonder, which I thought was great we talked about how those two shorts might have actually hurt each other. I think they hurt each other because of the way that they're made.

Joseph: 18:51

The specific skill set, yeah. At the same time, you could argue that a short like Magic Candies and Yuck might have hurt each other as well, because they had sort of battling childhood. Yeah, exactly so. In the Shadow of the Cypress might have just had enough to stand out from all of its other nominees on top of the other idea that it's motivated by wanting to support those two filmmakers and support the Iranian industry for animation, right and I will say that that's been another hot take on Twitter.

Jules: 19:19

You know the acceptance speech by those filmmakers. People didn't like the way the you know male presenter.

Joseph: 19:25

It was supposed to be a bit, I think.

Jules: 19:27

I think so too. But the male filmmaker, the way he kind of ripped the phone from her hand and I think it sat poorly with a lot of people, I think the way that the female filmmaker was sort of treated in that moment. However, the slide that people felt was being shown in that moment, I think it was a bit treated in that moment. However, you know, the slide that they, that people felt was being you know shown in that moment.

Joseph: 19:47

I think it was a bit lost in communication. Right, right, I think it's interesting that I haven't seen a lot of the conversation, but it's interesting that the conversation has revolved around that and not necessarily that they got their visas approved. Right right right. In less than you know they got their visas approved and had such little time to get to the ceremony. I think that's the larger point here.

Jules: 20:07

Right and the next category, costume design, was also a very obvious winner the predicted favorite was Wicked. The costume designer made history the first black man to win an Oscar for costume design, and only, I think, the second black individualume designer to ever win following the legendary Ruth Carter. Right.

Joseph: 20:28

Right, who won twice for Black Panther, twice for Black Panther. I'm sure she'll win again, right, but it's been nominated so many times so yeah, that was great to see. It was great to see him make history. The room was aware of it. Yeah. Conan highlighted it, was aware of it. Yeah, conan highlighted it. Yeah, yeah, he made he. He got a standing ovation, yeah, um, and his second nomination after doing west side story, which I thought he was a dark horse for as well, so it's great to see him win here right.

Jules: 20:55

And then the next category, I believe, was original screenplay, um, which was somewhat anticipated because of real pain, had made things a little bit, you know, somewhat confusing, possibly with the BAFTA win, you and I felt pretty never bought it right, you and I felt pretty confident that Sean Baker was going to, uh, easily win that category. It was his, he did win and it was his first win of four that night, right, um, and I think maybe that started projecting, you know the Onora sort of night that we were going to be having.

Joseph: 21:25

I think it demonstrated when he accepted it that, you know, the crowd was enthusiastic about the film, at least. But you and I had sort of stated that the WGA had never missed a winner unless the winner was disqualified or unless the winner was Green Book. Right, exactly who happened to lose to a film that was not nominated for the Oscar. Exactly.

Jules: 21:43

He took a moment to thank the sex worker community and if you know sean baker's films, you know that many of them deal with, you know, sex work, sex workers or immigrants, people sort of on the edges of society. That's a really big um outsiders in a way. Uh, that's a really big aspect of his uh cinema, which is something that really um, that I really respond to that's. That's very compelling and powerful for me personally, and so I felt that that was very appropriate, right, and I don't know, I kind of, I kind of got the feeling from Sean Baker that as soon as he won that award and original screenplay, you know, he just doesn't strike me as the kind of artist that you know was, you know, going to have an issue if that was the only Oscar he was going to win that night.

Jules: 22:24

No, you know he was going to be fine if it was just his original screenplay win, but that's obviously not what happened. But I kind of got that vibe, like you know, oh, I have an Oscar screenplay, great, that's awesome, right, you know, and not necessarily expecting that to grow into the behemoth that it did grow into Right, but at the same time I don't think he was a filmmaker who was oblivious to how well a chance his film stood in so many other categories.

Joseph: 22:50

So I don't think he was gonna for lack of a better word Adrian Brody his speech there screenplay and just be the most hated man of the night by the time Best Picture rolled around.

Jules: 22:59

Yeah, I think all his speeches were pretty economical which I thought was great to see. Following that category, we had makeup and hairstyling, which was an obvious win for the substance. That was the clear favorite. It would become the only win the substance was going to have that night. You and I were already predicting that it was going to be the only win the substance was going to have that night, that it was going to be the only when the substance was going to have that night.

Jules: 23:24

I know on Twitter someone posted that there's some sort of mini or there's some sort of controversy in that the lead supervisor in the hair department wasn't recognized by the Academy or by the filmmakers that won that category and she had to leave before the production was over because of, um, uh, I'm not exactly sure why, but she left and someone else took over, some kind of thing like that, and and that filmmaker got completely snubbed out of a mention or, you know, uh, an award, nomination, um, in this category. So that's not nice to see. You know that that kind of sucks, because there's such great work in the substance from the makeup and hair department. You know, I think everyone who was a part of that crew deserves to be spotlighted. They did terrific work.

Jules: 24:16

So, I don't know. What do you think?

Joseph: 24:18

I agree that's. That's unfortunate. I don't know the exact details of the situation, but anyone who was involved in the makeup of the substance, whether you were a crew or department heads, you have a lot to be proud of I think it was one of the best ones of the night. Personally, in my opinion, I think it was such an amazing makeup job, um, amazing makeup effects job, um. What I will say is that when I saw the ceremony and they announced this award, I don't think the audience ate it up, I didn't, he.

Joseph: 24:45

I didn't see any standing ovation for the film and that sort of made me feel again that we were sort of on the right track that the substance is just too off putting a film to give a standing ovation to you know I mean makeup usually doesn't get a standing ovation but neither does uh production design, and I think it did get uh some people standing up for him. In general, the room will stand up in unison for someone they're incredibly excited about, but there will be winners that get some portion of the room to stand up for them. I didn't see anyone go too nuts for that win in makeup.

Jules: 25:17

At least that was my experience right and prior to the makeup uh category, we missed another category that was right after the Sean Baker category for original screenplay and that was adapted screenplay. Yeah, we forgot to mention that and Conclave was the favorite there and Conclave won. Yeah.

Jules: 25:31

Again, not a big surprise. I think people thought that was going to be one of two awards that Conclave was going to win that night, or three, or possibly three, I think you and I felt pretty confident that it was going to be the one win that Conclave was going to get, and it was.

Joseph: 25:49

I mean, we were pretty confident that the night would be dictated by the film editing win. Whoever won that or whoever lost that Right.

Jules: 25:53

Right. And so, after the makeup award, we got the Bond tribute, which you know which was well done.

Joseph: 26:01

I will say it was well done, it was well executed.

Jules: 26:04

The production was good. It was performed well. The singers that performed Lisa and Doja, cat and Ray. I thought they did a really good job. It was really weird at first to see Margaret Qualley have you know her big, you know kind of dance number. You know, I like it in the sense that I think quali should have been a nominee for the substance. I thought she was great in that movie, um and so in a way I was happy she was included in the ceremony. But it's a weird inclusion. Uh, margaret, quali doesn't have a lot of association to the bond world does she have any association to the bond world?

Joseph: 26:43

yeah, I don't think so, unless it's foreshadowing her association to the bond possibly, possibly, um, she performed well.

Jules: 26:50

It just seemed a little bit odd, um random, yeah right, and then, even if the production was well done, it's sort of a random yeah exercise.

Jules: 27:01

To begin with, you know, this, this, this performance, this tribute, and someone pointed out on Twitter, you know, it's also kind of off-putting and extra awkward that, in a way, we're doing this tribute to highlight these producers from the Bond franchise when the film has already just sold to Amazon, you know, and those producers aren't going to be part of it anymore, right? So in a way that's kind of weird too.

Joseph: 27:26

It was very, very strange.

Jules: 27:28

The Academy often does, I guess in an effort obviously-. Entertainment value yeah entertainment value, to add some kind of to add more viewership, more eyes on the screen these tributes or these kind of moments, but again, they're always dictated by what's the most popular thing we can do, as opposed to what's the most appropriate thing we can do, or what haven't we done for a while. Right and so um. It often feels out of place, feels forced, feels inorganic, feels, you know, contrived, Exactly, very contrived, and this was no exception, unfortunately, although well-executed.

Joseph: 28:04

Yeah, contrived, and this was no exception, unfortunately, although well executed. Yeah, well executed by everyone, from quality to the choreography, the dancers, doja cat, all those things they all did a fantastic job, but I agree with you it's.

Joseph: 28:14

It feels forced, it feels awkward and it feels especially sort of not just arbitrary, but maybe a little bit. You, if you're a film fan, you know the idea that this, the legacy of this franchise, is going to be in the hands of Amazon, who will sell your mother for for a penny, if they can, you know, is a little bit off-putting, you know. So I just found the entire thing awkward. Yeah, I absolutely did too. That said, I will say, and again, we were, we're going to speak about it throughout the ceremony, but yet again, I think we have another instance where Quali was not nominated, right, right, but she got on stage and that's the important part right Right, right right.

Joseph: 28:55

Because in the future, Quali will be up for an award again. Right. And people are going to remember that she was on stage. Right right. That's an important part of the future campaign, whether it's next year, two years, five years from now. Right. So her team know that that's sort of. If we can have her on stage, we want to, and if that means quality has to dance, she'll dance.

Jules: 29:18

Well, again, I think quality should have been there as a nominee, but I digress. Well, she'll be there next time. Now, um, the next category was probably the one of the most important categories of the night, which was best film editing the category of the night and that's when we were going to see full stop, if this was going to be on a normal night or if there was room for an upset right.

Joseph: 29:40

So we sort of said that this was an absolute must win for conclave, right right, because conclave was upper the award and no film that had been snubbed from best sound design, mixing, editing, whichever, or directing had been able to win this award since 1950., which was, I believe, king Solomon's Mines, right, right. So if Conclave was able to sort of overcome history, and it was the favorite in this category, it was the favorite on Gold Derby and it was the favorite on betting markets.

Jules: 30:12

It was the favorite to win.

Joseph: 30:13

If it was going to be able to overcome this sort of history hurdle, then I would think it had enough support to win Best Picture.

Jules: 30:20

Or at least it could put up a fighting chance.

Joseph: 30:29

If it didn't and it lost to something like the eventual winner on Nora, right, right, which is something that you had predicted.

Jules: 30:32

Yes, we thought it was going to be a very good night for Nora, right, and so ultimately we predicted that Nora would win film editing, because the history just wasn't on the side of uh Conclave and none of the other nominees could really eclipse, um, the sort of momentum that onora had. As well. As you know, the other nominees just never kind of uh conjured up enough momentum in and of themselves there was a moment pairs um you know, not enough people were associating wicked with editing right I mean the pairs was kind of, you know, deal away after all the controversy.

Joseph: 31:06

So there just wasn't another film besides those two that I think that could technically win that category and make sense there was a moment, I think, where I felt that if wicked is going to have a sort of dune part one, mad max fury road kind of night and win half of its awards, right and just sort of right weep. We floated that wins throughout below the line categories that it could win this because, it's his second nomination, right?

Joseph: 31:31

obviously, when wicked doesn't win that and they go with something like a nora, it goes to show you that wicked excuse me, wicked was not as popular as something like mad max or doom part two just sort of sweep, those below the line, categories right and I think we think we're going to see that.

Jules: 31:44

I think that overall, you know, wicked had a poorish night. You know it won the two categories that it needed to win, that were the clear favorites, right, and it underperformed everywhere else, which is particularly odd for a film that overperformed with nominations. Yeah, so it just made it clear that sort of this, you know, mainstream confection is what that's what it was. It was a mainstream pick, you know, and it wasn't something that voters were flocking to left and right or that it was, you know, uh, I think, extremely competitive and most of its categories, um, possibly, someone might even say possibly, a little over nominated, possibly, um, garnering 10 nominations. It's just, it's weird to see a film be as nominated as Wicked and be as popular a film as Wicked was last year and walk out with two wins. You know, you think of films like Mad Max and other spectacle driven films like Dune, part 2.

Joseph: 32:38

A little closer to Barbie actually, right, just that one win.

Jules: 32:41

Exactly, exactly. But even Barbie, the behemoth that it was, fell short of the nominations that Wicked did.

Joseph: 32:48

Yeah, no double digits.

Jules: 32:49

So you would think that a spectacle-driven film like Wicked, having done as well as it did with nominations, would do better with wins, and it did not Right. So I think that that doesn't speak too well of Wicked's performance for the night.

Joseph: 33:02

Right, and I agree with that. We should probably touch on history here Sean Baker winning the film editing category becomes, I believe, the first director-editor to win this category on their first try.

Joseph: 33:14

Right, and if you check out our previous episode where we break down who we were predicting to win for the night, we had said that Cuaron and the Coen brothers were winners in this category, but it was not their first nomination. And I think the other thing to mention is that one reason why this category was so important for us, when we were sort of considering who's going to win Best Picture, when it's looking a little bit closer than we had initially thought between Conclave and Onora, it's just the idea that if Onora managed to win here which it did it was going to follow in that trajectory of everything everywhere all at once. Right.

Joseph: 33:44

But certainly something like the Departed and Crash, which were two more contemporary films that don't have that fantastical element like everything everywhere all at once, but that still managed to win this category and therefore sort of solidify its ability to win Best Picture.

Jules: 34:01

Yeah, it sort of foreshadowed the night that those films were going to have. That ended up with those films winning Best Picture Right.

Joseph: 34:08

And I also can't stress enough the idea that Enora won here. Not only is it again a film that doesn't shout Best Film Editing because it's not working with multiple timelines, doesn't have that sound nomination. You know the post-production work in general is not something that you know work in general, it's not something that you know screams out to voters. It's sort of, I think, the first film to win this category without nominations at the cinema audio society or the motion picture sound editors. Even someone like the departed and everything everywhere that once had nominations there, and I'm pretty sure that crash might have gotten a nomination at least from the motion picture sound editors. I have to double check that. But a Nora really did not get any sort of mentions for its sound work.

Jules: 34:49

Right, exactly, I will say this was the category, one of the top categories, I think we were most proud of to have predicted right. This was one of our big yambles that was going outside of what most people were thinking. We went with our gut that it was going to be a nora. We got it right. I was really happy about that. Um, again, this is sean baker's second award of the night um, soon to be four, right, um, and I will say, you know, even if it's not a film, that it's the kind of film that typically wins this category.

Jules: 35:21

I think we mentioned in a previous episode and this is important to, to to bring up again, you know, I think it. It was important that you know Sean Baker has edited most of his films and so there's an understanding within the artistic community, the film community community, that he's a filmmaker and he said in his speech that a lot of his film you know so much of his filmmaking is. You know this three-part process where you're you know you're creating the film, you're directing the film, you're writing the film and you're editing the film.

Joseph: 35:51

I actually love his speech yeah.

Jules: 35:53

Right. And they're sort of all intertwined in this really beautiful way. Right.

Jules: 35:56

And I really feel that that you know sort of understanding of, you know his process and how he is an editor who has, uh, continuously edited his films and how his editing is a big you know part of his filmmaking helped him carry that win, despite, you know, the film not being what typically wins the category. Sean Baker edits his films really well. You know, um a norm particularly has, you know, a really beautiful editing work with tone, um and sort of navigating this different genre, the different genres. It's sort of juggling. It does that really beautifully and so I'm really happy to see a film like this win this category.

Jules: 36:34

I prefer there to be more you know winners in this category that aren't necessarily the flashiest. You know in editing and what's most edited and what has the most cuts. You know sometimes it is just as strong. Just you know in editing and what's most edited and what has the most cuts. You know sometimes it is just as strong. Just you know, as an editor myself, sometimes it's just about how well you can communicate the story and character and tone. And so seeing more winners within that realm where it's just a really beautifully done piece of work that communicates essential elements of storytelling, I think I'd like to see more of that in this category. Typically it falls into what is again the flashiest. What film has the flashiest editing?

Joseph: 37:12

right and so that I actually, you know, was really happy to see personally right and I agree with that, but it's certainly not the typical academy fair. I did check. Crash was nominated for both the sound mixers Guild and the Sound Editors Guild, so I think Anora is the first film since I don't know when to win this without any sort of sound support.

Joseph: 37:30

I think what it really goes to show is whoever was sort of managing the campaign for Conclave, which is a film that is very well directed and Edward Berger's second try they needed to crack that category. They needed to crack that category and if not, you know, the sound work is also top notch in that film. They needed to break into that category too. And sort of the Focus Features campaign sort of really fell off when it did not get double digit nominations and it missed those two categories. I think that was sort of the nail in the coffin for that film winning more awards than adapted screenplay right, and certainly losing film editing right, um.

Jules: 38:10

So again, hugely important award, and it sort of dictated the rest of the, the rest of the night. You know in the direction it was going to head. Yeah, and then the following category was best supporting actress. Uh, you know there was some speculation that Isabel Rossellini could possibly upset here. You and I felt very confident that it wasn't enough, you know time, to sort of bridge the gap between her and Zoe Zaldana. So Zoe Zaldana easily won this category. You and.

Jules: 38:37

I suspected that that was going to be the big win for Amelia Perez. No matter how people feel about Amelia Perez, the Academy clearly liked it to get 13 nominations. It fell very short of what I think it could have been and what Netflix, I think, was hoping it was going to be, um, but it was not going to walk out with zero awards and this was going to be the biggest award it could win, um, and probably the, the award that was easiest for us to, easiest for it to win, because I don't think anyone associates the problems with amelia perez with me, with zoysia dania's performance in the movie um, and, again, she's an actor that people are very familiar with. So I think that was a very expected win.

Jules: 39:16

People in the room seemed pretty, uh happy when she, when she won, she got a standing ovation. People seemed pretty moved by her speech when, uh, when she was mentioning, uh, her background. She's the third Latina to win that category and the first Latina to win for a movie that isn't West Side Story, which is significant. Um, the first uh woman, um, uh, latino, uh, you know, with of Dominican origin, to win that category, as she said in her speech, also significant, and so it was an important moment for the Latino community as well. Yeah.

Jules: 39:52

And so again, not a surprise and an expected win there.

Joseph: 39:57

Yeah, and again she was able to survive all the backlash.

Jules: 40:00

Yes, and the next category was production design. A very clear winner, clear favorite here was Wicked, and that's exactly who won.

Joseph: 40:08

Nathan Crowley finally wins, though, which is nice, exactly.

Jules: 40:10

Yeah, that was nice to see. I will say that these were. I'll just reiterate these are the two awards that Wicked had to win costume and production design and it did win. Yeah. I was just curious who was going to be able to, you know, beat that.

Joseph: 40:24

There's one where I thought it would win. Yeah, I was just curious if it was going to be able to, you know, beat that. There's one where I thought it would beat the odds.

Jules: 40:26

Yes and we'll get to that. Let's see, you know some bits here and there. The Ben Stiller bit was pretty funny with the production design.

Joseph: 40:35

Yeah, that was really funny, that was really funny, that was great.

Jules: 40:38

I think maybe some people who understand production design too well might not have found it super funny, but it played really well, because if you do understand production design, it's a pretty funny joke again ben stiller zero oscar nominations as well.

Joseph: 40:50

Put that out exactly um, let's see.

Jules: 40:53

Afterwards came the best original song category mick jagger. Mick jagger, which you know best. Presenter of the night oh yeah, his present, his presentation was great, I loved it um he said bob, yeah, bob, dennis favorite yeah songs weren't included in the original song um and so, as we all know, the original songs were not able to perform, but again, we did find room to spotlight wicked and define gravity, yeah and, and and bond, but somehow not for the actual nominees.

Joseph: 41:27

Yeah, that was original song. Why couldn't we get doja cat, uh ray and lisa to perform the original songs?

Jules: 41:34

I think that would have been very entertaining having done that right and um again, just a little like if you're gonna cancel the songs?

Joseph: 41:41

okay, great, cancel the songs, but then cancel every musical number except the in Memoriam, exactly.

Jules: 41:46

And not only that. If you're someone said it on Twitter if you're that embarrassed by the songs, then just cancel the category. Yeah. No more original song category. That it's just kind of ugly and distasteful to have a category you know for original song and not have the opportunity to perform those songs. To me it just doesn't sit well.

Joseph: 42:04

I mean, and those girls from Wicked are going to have a song next year. You can just hear them sing next year, right? So yeah, overall I was disappointed. I mean those writers, diane Warren, the guys from Sing Sing it would have been great to see them on stage performing this or to see someone performing it. Right, but yeah.

Jules: 42:25

The songwriters of Amelia Perez. When you know the song, the song, uh, the usage of song is so integral to the experience of that movie. You know, and personally I thought it was a highlight of the movie. You know, it would have been nice to, you know, have them have their moment Right Um to have their songs performed. The winner here was a clear favorite, El Mal from Emilia Perez. We had stipulated in our previous predictions that that song is so tied to the Zoe Zaldana performance that they kind of come in a pair in a way, they're kind of a part of one package, and so Emilia Perez could at least count on those two wins for the night.

Joseph: 43:01

And it did.

Jules: 43:02

And it did, and that was halfway marked through the show, and it did and it did, and that was halfway marked through the show. And the next category was a documentary short film, which I was very eager to see.

Joseph: 43:11

Right, we were able to see Again great films.

Jules: 43:13

We were able to see four of these shorts. We were only not able to see Death by Numbers, which looks really good too. It looks really good. We saw I Am Ready Warden, incident Instruments of a Beating Heart and the Only Girl in the Orchestra.

Joseph: 43:24

Incident easily. One of the best films nominated period.

Jules: 43:30

Yes, Incident is the clear best short nominated of all the three short categories and, as you said, one of the best films that were nominated that night period. An astounding piece of work.

Joseph: 43:44

By Bill Morrison. Yeah, I believe he made a couple of documentary features. A powerful piece of work by Bill Morrison. I believe he's made a couple of documentary features Maybe this sort of introduces him to more voters. I think would be the good thing here.

Jules: 43:53

I was happy to see that he got a nomination Again. Just an incredible piece of filmmaking. Some people had stipulated that possibly it could win. I thought that it was. Oh, it's impossible yeah that kind of film just doesn't win this category.

Joseph: 44:06

Cerebral right and people were going to look down upon it. I think because of the way it was made right, right, which is sort of reappropriating this footage and sort of piecing it together and not sort of the traditional yeah you know portrait piece or interview piece or fly on the wall piece.

Jules: 44:20

So a very interesting film an incredible, incredible, incredible film. I think you should all check it out. Um, and we predicted the only girl in the ark or start will win and thankfully it did win. It closed the gap because I am ready.

Joseph: 44:32

Warden was the favorite, but it closed the gap at the end and you and I had talked about at least I felt that the sort of small hollywood factor that's going on there was going to help it. The, the. Netflix release was going to help it.

Jules: 44:46

There are a lot of elements in that short film that are, you know, certainly helping it. You know, kind of go all the way to that win the background of that artist of Oren, you know, having parents who were in the film industry early on. I think this category likes a lot of sort of musical documentaries as well, so that's going to do well.

Joseph: 45:08

Um, I just felt like an older generation was going to look at this short and respond to it heavily um, there was a moment when I had theorized and I I told you this after I saw them that what we might have is sort of a double down on the two texas short films one of them being I'm ready warden with the idea of the death penalty in texas, right, right.

Joseph: 45:30

And the other one being a short film in live action, right right so that was a theory of mine that that could be one of the headlines coming out of the awards that the academy was going to sort of push forward this statement that you know. It's very important to look at these two shorts that have very important issues in America right now in the United. States right now. That did not come to fruition in either category really but certainly not here.

Jules: 45:55

Right, I had said that you know, having Death by Numbers, I Am Ready, warden and Incident kind of all have their political charge that they were all going to take away votes from each other. Yeah, and I was going to help a movie like the only girl in the orchestra which kind of stands out a little bit amidst that pack, yeah, and I think that's something that definitely happened in that category. Um, let's see. Uh, so we got that one right, thankfully. The next category was a category that a lot of people were anticipating, which was documentary film. We had predicted no Other Land. No Other Land was the clear favor in that category.

Joseph: 46:30

It was tricky, though after that, after Lost Right.

Jules: 46:32

There was some, you know there was some thinking that possibly again, maybe possibly too controversial, too current kind of film to win in this category. Yeah.

Jules: 46:44

Considering the Palestinian-Israeli conflict that's ongoing and other people who thought that that was something that was really going to help the film go all the way to the end. It's a very, very powerful documentary that unfortunately, still does not have a distributor, unsurprisingly In the United States unsurprisingly, but I think the timeliness of the subject matter and, again, it's an incredible documentary prevailed and it won that category and I think a lot of people were happy to be able to see the representatives of the film.

Joseph: 47:13

Both protagonists, exactly both protagonists, great speech.

Jules: 47:16

I think it was the best speech of the night, my favorite yeah, it was the best speech of the night. It was very moving, it was very powerful, it was very direct, it was very, you know, uh, precise, succinct and compelling.

Joseph: 47:29

It was a great speech. I think it was very uh classy for the academy to give them that moment.

Jules: 47:32

Yeah, and um, I was really happy to see that and I think I can say for most of us we were happy to see that one for that documentary now, if someone would just release it. Yes, please, please, please. People need to see this documentary film. The next category was sound design, and you and I were, you know, very much anticipating this category. We were going out on a limb and saying that it wasn't going to be Dune Part 2, which was the favorite. Why? Because it lacked the editing nomination. Exactly, exactly.

Joseph: 48:01

And that it was too close to Dune, part 1. Right exactly, right, exactly. And that it was too close to dune part one. Right, and that when dune part two wins at bafta you know it was nominated seven times at bafta compared to only five times at the academy right could it really win two academy awards?

Jules: 48:13

right and underperform with five nominations, yeah right.

Joseph: 48:16

And then everyone was sort of on pins and needles because they thought the upset here was a complete unknown right, right, because it had won the cinema audio society. But we said the problem with a complete unknown is not just that it doesn't have an editing nomination, which is pretty vital to winning sound most of the time, right, but also that it didn't get a BAFTA nomination, right, right. And so we were sort of thinking if there's anyone that could upset Dune here, it would be wicked, right, why?

Joseph: 48:41

here it would be wicked. Why? Because this is the same sort of category that gave awards to let me rob, to dream girls to chicago. They like visual effects film. Well, let me rob is like chicago with the visual effects nomination.

Jules: 48:52

And we also said that for musicals who that technically do well in this category, for a musical like wicked to do as well as those musicals did in terms of nominations and also get a category like visual effects and editing, and also got a category like film editing that it kind of had everything in its arsenal to prevail here and win this category.

Jules: 49:11

It would be another coup for wicked yeah uh, which again we thought could you know really capitalize on this sort of spectacle? Uh, you know status, and so you know we were going all in on wicked. And then they announced the winner and it's freaking Dune Part 2. And now, instead of getting you know, I think by now we're by.

Joseph: 49:32

I think we're three down yeah we're two down.

Jules: 49:34

No, we're two down. Um, cause they haven't said live action short yet, um, so we've got two down and now we have our third down and you know I'm pretty frustrated, I'm pretty upset. You know, the BAFTA win, I think, was a big reason people were predicting Doom Part 2 to win, carrying that momentum or maybe the BAFTA revealing that you know, that movie was safe in this category, and I was just so frustrated we got that one wrong because again it was a clear favorite and it just didn't make sense to us. But that's exactly what happened. Doom part two won best sound and I'll also say that the win for doom part two here.

Jules: 50:13

To me it came across like there are several people within this academy, in the phase two part of this academy, again, there's a phase one for people who vote for nominations, which is different from the phase two for people who vote for winners, which is the academy at large. You and I have hypothesized for a very long time that the group of people who are voting for the nominations is a much smaller group. But overall this one for Doom Part Two made it clear to me that the academy at large would have wanted to see more nominations for Doom Part 2.

Joseph: 50:44

It's interesting because I agree with what you're saying at the same time. But by this moment in the ceremony, bafta has more or less lined up pretty well, with the Academy Only missing one tech right, which was Anora, which was the most telling tech.

Jules: 51:05

But other than that BAFTA. Well, I mean they missed the documentary category as well. I mean the craft categories, the craft categories, yeah, in the craft categories.

Joseph: 51:13

they're getting most of them right. They missed the editing one for Onora and Conclave. They still get it for sound they give it to Dune. But I think it goes to show you how important it was that the Academy diverged from BAFTA in that editing category, but how it's sort of more or less pretty similar in those other tech categories.

Joseph: 51:34

So we're kind of in this awkward place where BAFTA, by the end of the night, we're going to see. Bafta had a huge hand in a lot of these winners. Yeah, At the same time, in a couple of very pivotal races, BAFTA fell short including film editing, Right exactly. So we should have stuck with the BAFTA winner here.

Jules: 51:50

Yeah, we should have, we should have, and, and kicking myself that we didn't pick the front runner there.

Joseph: 51:56

So that's three down and I'm pretty pissed at Wicked, to be perfectly honest, because what the hell Wicked?

Jules: 52:00

should have won this Right and it made sense for Wicked to win this. But, like I said, I think it just becomes clear that as a whole, the Academy would have liked to see Dune Part 2 have more of a presence here. Possibly a nomination for best director, possibly a nomination for best film editing, possibly a nomination for best costume Makeup you know makeup. I think the Academy at large would have liked to have seen more Dune Part 2 in general Right. Next category was visual effects Easy win here for Dune Part 2.

Joseph: 52:30

The Dune section of the ceremony.

Jules: 52:31

The Dune, Part 2 section, and you know it performed with flying colors.

Joseph: 52:37

It's kind of weird. How do you not know the winners in advance and put both these wins back to back? I'm just saying a little bit weird to me right, so again, doom part two prevailed there.

Jules: 52:46

And then the next category is live action short film. Right, okay, so far, so far, it's wrong it's like no, these categories shouldn't even count.

Joseph: 52:55

They're wonderful films, but no one's going to get these right.

Jules: 52:57

No, there are other years where the favorite seems more obvious. I think this was a year where the favorite was less obvious in all three of the short categories.

Joseph: 53:07

I think the favorite was obvious. No, it just fell short.

Jules: 53:09

No, no, no, I don't think it was as obvious. I think last year we had freaking Wes Anderson win live action shorts.

Joseph: 53:15

That was a scam and Wes Anderson didn't even go and pick up that reward. Please take that back.

Jules: 53:20

No, but my point is that for the live action shorts, I do think there are other years where the winner feels just more clear. I think this year it felt a little bit more nebulous, like two or three or four were competing for the win here. You know there was a last minute surge, but we had predicted it before that last minute surge.

Jules: 53:38

It was tight that Aileen pardon me stood the best opportunity to win this, typically the film that wins this category at least recently, the trend has been that they're usually English language speaking short films. Just the political, political timeliness of a lean was going to help it prevail and win this category, so you and I were predicting that that's what Mike got said. That wasn't the favorite, though. The favorite was um the man who could not remain silent Again. We had the opportunity to see all these shorts and I liked most of them.

Jules: 54:14

They were successful see all these shorts and I liked most of them. Are successful. I liked most of them. I will say that Aileen, which was the one we were predicting was my, was my least favorite.

Joseph: 54:20

I enjoyed it.

Jules: 54:21

I was my least favorite, um, but I really liked the man who could not remain silent. And my favorite one of the category was I'm not a robot. I thought that was really, uh, well done, very clever, um, uh, compelling. You know, I really liked that short. That was my personal pick. I just thought that, again, the foreign aspect of it and that typically those kind of you know sharp, clever, you know somewhat comedic, humorous short films don't tend to do so great in this category.

Jules: 54:53

They like more dramatic work, sometimes sentimentality. So again I thought that that film was on the outs here, but again it was my favorite. The favorite for everyone at large was the man who Could Not Remain Silent.

Joseph: 55:06

Which was based on a true story.

Jules: 55:08

Right, and I thought that was a very powerful short as well. I really liked that one. And then last minute it became Aline who became the favorite, which was probably the most, I suppose, relevant topic. Right right, exactly Right for on the United States side. Right again, but we had predicted that before. The last minute. Storage before everyone else.

Joseph: 55:25

Yeah, our gut said that Aline would be a thing they kind of go for was close. Yes, some people had said the last ranger was also.

Jules: 55:35

There were some people floating that the last ranger is a possible you know kind of something that could, you know, tug at the heartstrings of voters and we also thought that when we saw Anuja, sort of the credit sequence of Anuja if it did win would be instrumental in sort of getting it that win right, right, right. But the winner ended up being I'm Not a Robot.

Joseph: 55:55

Which was your?

Jules: 55:55

favorite Was my favorite, and so I'm actually really happy that that short won. I'm just really frustrated that I didn't predict my favorite Right, but again, I was going. Your favorites hardly ever win.

Joseph: 56:06

I'm saying a person's personal favorites hardly ever win. It's a bad thing to go on Listen the first, I think, foreign language short film to win, since I think maybe 10 years yeah.

Jules: 56:18

Something like that, maybe a little bit longer.

Joseph: 56:20

Yeah, so it does not happen often. I will say that when I saw it and I agree with you I enjoyed it immensely and I think it's the film that Companion should have been Spoiler alert. But I thought it was the film that demonstrated a writer, a director, a producing team that was ready to make an expanded feature ready to make a first film, right, Sort of a plug and play sort of movie.

Joseph: 56:43

All the other films as well, done as they are, you don't really see, necessarily, it doesn't shout out, oh well, I'm ready to pay this person to make this film. But this film I'm Not a Robot, I think does shout that Right, right, Great to see a female.

Jules: 56:57

I believe filmmaker? Yes, and they had a really good speech. I really like the speech. They referenced the Kieran.

Joseph: 57:02

Colfin thing, I'm not having your baby. Yeah, it was like very matter-of-factly. I'm not having your children because I won this award. Yeah, an Oscar's fine, but no.

Jules: 57:12

But no, I really liked her speech quite a bit, so I was really happy for the win. I'm just really frustrated that we got it wrong and now we're down to four wrong, and so I'm already kicking myself because I wanted to get three max. But, at least we got one short right. I mean.

Joseph: 57:29

I'm not happy about that. I think we did better than most people.

Jules: 57:32

No, still, I don't know. So that's frustrating. There were moments, right before we got to the memoriam Sprinkle Doral where, um, they were paying tribute to, uh, filmmakers, to filmmakers, to artists that we lost. Morgan Freeman came out and paid tribute to Gene Hackman. Right before he tragically lost his life and, uh, his wife as well. Um uh, just days before the ceremony Extraordinary actor. Extraordinary actor. It would seems like absolutely tragic circumstances. They're still investigating, I think, what happened. So that's just a tragic story all around.

Joseph: 58:09

Our heart goes out to our loved ones, our family members.

Jules: 58:13

And such a great loss for the film community, you know.

Joseph: 58:15

Gene.

Jules: 58:15

Hackman is one of the all-time greats. He could do anything, anything, absolutely anything.

Joseph: 58:21

And, like I will say that, if you're someone from the younger generation, you can put on Gene Hackman from the 60s or 70s and it's just as effective as anything he made later in life. Yeah. You know I love Gene Hackman and everything, but I'll always remember being 11 years old and watching him in theaters in Heartbreakers and absolutely splitting my gut laughing at him. Yeah, absolutely fantastic actor, he could do anything.

Jules: 58:48

An incredible actor and such a huge loss for the community, and he will be incredibly, incredibly missed, and so they paid tribute to him. Quincy Jones also got a tribute from Oprah Winfrey and Whoopi Goldberg yeah.

Speaker 3: 59:02

But I want to say that was later on, that was later on.

Jules: 59:04

But I'm going to mention that. You know, I think that there was a missed opportunity here to pay tribute to one of the greatest filmmakers to ever live.

Jules: 59:13

David Lynch, many of us are still recovering from that loss. You know it feels like a black hole loss, personally to me I'm sure to you as well David Lynch is one of our you know heroes, um, who tragically passed recently and there's a missed opportunity there. You know Isabella Rossellini finally managing to get a nomination at 72 years old. Tell me how that happens, um, she beautifully. She wore blue velvet as a tribute to david lynch.

Jules: 59:42

her date was her date was laura dern, it was a beautiful moment how do you not? Get those two on stage. Yeah, to say a few words about one of the greatest filmmakers to ever live yeah like david lynch. You know that didn't sit well with me um it didn't sit well with me.

Joseph: 59:57

Um, it didn't sit well with me either, and I think it was a missed opportunity because they were there in the audience. And then I'll also say personally for me I think you should have said more about james earl jones yeah, I think what he, his impact in the industry and in american or united states, film culture is just immense yeah I wish they would have invited someone to speak on his behalf, on his behalf specifically such an immense figure for acting and for movies.

Joseph: 1:00:22

So I think that those two individuals should have gotten the same sort of standout treatment that gene hackman got granted. I? I read somewhere that they hadn't included gene hackman in the package, so they had to like improvise something right, but I I I feel like we could have extended bigger tributes to all of those individuals also michelle tractenberg yeah recently passed so tragically.

Jules: 1:00:47

As a young woman who you know gave us really memorable parts, I'll never forget if you're a kid in the 90s, you definitely saw harriet the spy.

Joseph: 1:00:54

you know harriet the spy and that's a very meaningful movie If you ever saw Gossip Girl, you know she had a very memorable part there, right.

Jules: 1:01:00

And if you saw one of my favorite films of all time, mysterious Kid, right, she's so great in that, where she worked with Betty Corbett, yes, and you know, hearing about her tragic loss was horrendous um again shock.

Joseph: 1:01:15

Yeah, our hearts go out to her friends and family absolutely, and so you know.

Jules: 1:01:18

I think she was also missing from the package, and people have mentioned a few other artists miss a lot of young people, because I think some people brought up the idea that.

Joseph: 1:01:27

I'm sorry if I'm misspeaking here, but I think maybe brad renfro was cut from the package one year, yeah, yeah they, they do that a.

Jules: 1:01:35

They really have to revise that. And there were other artists that people have mentioned on Twitter, I think in the Latin community Right, who were also not represented there.

Joseph: 1:01:44

One of the actresses from All About. My Mother passed away.

Jules: 1:01:46

Yes, and so you know it's just, you know it's sort of.

Joseph: 1:01:51

Make that section bigger, cut the Bond section, and I was actually a big fan of right, the music that they used.

Jules: 1:02:00

I think I liked it. I think when the presentation was more artistically inclined, you know, I found it to be powerful. With that music um, I forget the composition piece, you know, but it's one that I've I've heard, that I've heard before and there's a very, very powerful piece of music and you know, I prefer a presentation like that which, again, I think, feels more artistically inclined, than necessarily something that's sort of very obviously sentimental. I know people had issues or some people didn't like it and some people liked the sort of sentimental touch.

Jules: 1:02:33

I personally prefer what we were given this night to other ceremonies. That's just me. I prefer that they go in this direction. But yeah, some people were missing the sort of sentimental tap.

Joseph: 1:02:43

I think they do a sentimental thing so often that when you don't see it. You're kind of like what the hell is this?

Jules: 1:02:49

Right, yeah, yeah, but I didn't mind it. I didn't mind it.

Joseph: 1:02:52

But again extend the tribute, try to include more individuals, especially young people that they miss so often. And again, I think that figures like James Earl Jones and David Lynch make Doja Cat perform to a commemoration to David Lynch. That'd be wonderful, yeah, yeah.

Jules: 1:03:09

A hundred percent Okay. So the next category was Best Cinematography. The favorite was the Brutalist. Yeah, and this was, I believe, the first award the Brutalist won that night. Yeah, again, no surprises there. I think that the Brutalist was the favorite and also the film that deserved to win this category. You know, obviously the Vista vision of it all was part of the campaign. Right.

Joseph: 1:03:33

So that was something I think was going to attract voters to voting for this movie in this category, not a super competitive category, though yeah, I kind of think that amelia perez, sort of nosedived maria's on one nomination dune just won and nosferatu did not get that best picture nomination right um.

Jules: 1:03:49

The next category was international film and, uh, most people were predicting I'm still here, even if amelia p Perez kind of had everything it needed to have to get that win. There was a last minute search where I'm still here from.

Joseph: 1:04:01

Brazil. One or two people still thought that Amelia Perez would still win Right right, but you and I predicted I'm still here as soon as the nominations. We thought that was going to happen Come on Right.

Jules: 1:04:10

We thought it was going to be one of two that that film was going to win. At least we were going to be wrong, as you'll see soon, and so that film prevailed there, very happy for Walter Saez, who's an amazing filmmaker.

Joseph: 1:04:24

Brazil made history the first Brazilian film to win that category, oscar history for Brazil Right and.

Jules: 1:04:30

I remember Fernanda Torres I saw it on Twitter that she had said in an interview that that was the award, that she had said in an interview that that was the award that she most wanted the film to win.

Joseph: 1:04:40

Yeah.

Jules: 1:04:40

And that she didn't really care about anything else. Of course not that that was the award that she felt she most wanted. I'm Still here to win.

Joseph: 1:04:46

I really think, if there's anyone in that room that didn't give a damn, it was Fernando Torres. About winning something, I think. The win for Brazil, yeah, and for Walter, and for Walter.

Jules: 1:04:55

Yeah, and so that was really nice to see. I think it was the favorite and again, I think it was a film that deserved to win that category. So happy to see that Original score right after cinematography. Another brutalist win, the favorite in that category.

Jules: 1:05:08

The Baptist streak lives on Right Exactly, and I certainly think in this group it was the most attention calling musical score Right and probably the score that you know voters are going to remember most Mm-hmm. So its win is not a huge surprise. Yeah, and again it was a favorite. Yeah, really a talented guy. You know, there was a joke here and there where Conan O'Brien brought up Onora having a big night, a good night Right up on aura having a big night, a good night right, and then he mentioned you know, uh, the sort of, uh, americans, finally an american finally standing up to a bully russian right, and so I think that joke landed really well that night I think it was his best joke to be yeah, I think it was his best joke, you know, in a ceremony that was somewhat kind of reserved, with its political takes, which I personally did not like seeing.

Joseph: 1:05:58

Yeah, but I understand, I mean.

Jules: 1:06:00

Yeah, but I thought it was still nevertheless unfortunate to see, and so let's see, I think after that we go into, which was weird because original score got left for so late in the night.

Joseph: 1:06:13

Again, I go back to the argument that somebody knows who these winners are, because if you're telling me that you paired the Wicked Wins so together and the Br late in the night. Again, I go back to the argument that somebody knows who these winners are, because if you're telling me that you paired the Wicked Wins so together, and the. Brutalist Wins so together and the Dune Wins back to back. I don't believe in coincidences, so somebody knew Interesting, If you ask me.

Jules: 1:06:29

Interesting? Well, it was. Uh, it was interesting because you were having a late night surge, a late night surge for the buddha lists. Winnings yeah, exactly, maybe getting a little momentum here and then, finally, we get to best actor right, and the favorite is certainly adrian brody but chalamet has worried about the gap we were worried about chalamet because of that sag win and that maybe that was a revelation of something to come.

Jules: 1:07:00

We had talked about how this quartet was missing sort of a real life figure, an actor playing a real life figure from you know, there should be a winner amongst the quartet that is playing a real life figure. We thought it was going to be fernanda torres, but timothy shalloway was option two was option number two about playing the iconic bob dylan.

Joseph: 1:07:23

He was waiting in the wings and the sort of the poetry of him winning at the age of 29 which was sort of tying adrian brody as the youngest winner, for the pianist exactly and can adrian brody really do it without two sag awards?

Jules: 1:07:36

that was no sag awards, right that was something that, even as the night, even as we were getting ready to start the night, it was really kind of gnawing at me. You know, are we really wrong about adrian brody? Are we really wrong about adrian brody? Because I started thinking well, you know, the sag typically doesn't get. You know, they do pretty well in the sense they do. You know the last in the last 30 years, I think there's only been nine years where they've only they've gotten more than one, uh, sag winner wrong at the Oscars. Um, so usually they get, you know, one winner wrong. Um, you know, for the people that end up the quartet that ends up winning the Oscar yeah.

Jules: 1:08:14

They usually only get wrong. We had tweeted that, yeah right, um, more than one. There's only been nine years where that's happened, and you and I were so sure about demi more. So I was thinking, well, if demi more is going to lose, then maybe we're wrong and thinking that timothy chalamet is also going to lose. Um, add to that again, he's playing a real life figure, right? So we were really having cold feet. Second thoughts about Timothee Chalamet not predicting him. I almost changed our Gold Dory prediction in the last minute to Timothee Chalamet, but I'm glad that I didn't, and so-.

Joseph: 1:08:49

Maybe people did hear his speech. No, I don't think so.

Jules: 1:08:54

He wanted to be one of the greats. He graded himself right out of the window. No, I don't think so. He wanted to be one of the greats. He graded himself right out of the way. No, no, I don't think it's that. Like I said, I just think that Adrian Brody is just so good in the brutalist that I think it was going to be hard for voters not to vote for him. Personally, that's what I think, and Adrian Brody prevailed. The brutalist won its third win of the night, like I said. Third win of the night. Like I said, close black, back to back to, you know, cinematography and original score, and then we get to.

Joseph: 1:09:20

Well, I will say this in my opinion, what we saw is just another suggestion that the baffta has more sway here than we had initially thought again adrian brody, loser of the sag award, winner of the baffta award, wins the Oscar Right and we'll see this play out again, right.

Jules: 1:09:38

And becoming the first actor since the start of the SAGs to uh win two Oscars without ever once winning a SAG award, stepping foot on stage At the SAG awards For the SAG individual, which again that's, that's breaking a certain history with the SAGs.

Joseph: 1:09:53

Um they in history with the sacks. Um, they did sort of, I want to say I wanted to mention that they did finally catch everyone's memo or frustration at the lack of clips, and they finally started putting some clips on, I believe right and I think we can talk about that.

Jules: 1:10:04

You know, I wasn't again, we didn't. We don't like this sort of, you know, separation between the acting categories and the supporting categories. So the acting categories, I guess, are worthy enough of getting clips, but the supporting categories, so the acting categories, I guess, are worthy enough of getting clips, but the supporting categories are again treated a little bit more like second-class citizens. They don't get clips. Yeah.

Jules: 1:10:23

I get that they're all decisions that are made in an effort to sort of save on time, possibly, but still, you know it doesn't sit right with me. You know, either show clips for everybody all four acting categories, or don't show clips for everybody, all four acting categories or don't show clips for any. Just treat everyone equally.

Joseph: 1:10:58

I don't like inadvertently expressing that one kind of actor is more important or significant or worthy of more emphatic attention than another kind of actor, a supporting actor. I 100 agree, but I will say we have not given the devil his due yet, which is we were big fans of some of the below the line categories that were presented in such a way where they highlighted the tremendous achievement of those artisans yes, and theiracies.

Joseph: 1:11:15

So when you have a cinematography category where you speak about the work of Lil Crowley and I believe it's coming from an individual involved with the film like Joel Alwyn or you have Al Fanning speaking on the costume designer from a completely unknown, Arianne Phillips, or you even have the actress from Maria speaking on Ed Lachman.

Jules: 1:11:35

I thought that was wonderful. Yeah, that was beautiful. They should do that every year.

Joseph: 1:11:38

Yeah, that was absolutely beautiful these artists are stars too yes, you know they're stars in their sort of field right, absolutely, that was absolutely beautiful to see.

Jules: 1:11:47

I think that was my favorite thing about this ceremony. It was so moving to get those craftsmen, those artisans, you, their attention, their due spotlight.

Joseph: 1:11:57

Yeah, and sort of have the camera on them and sort of listen to and see how moved they are by those words. Exactly it was just so wonderful.

Jules: 1:12:03

I loved, loved, loved. That I can't tell you how much I love that.

Joseph: 1:12:07

Give the devil his due. They did that right. Yeah, and they need to do it for every category, including production designers, yes and makeup artists.

Jules: 1:12:13

Yes, but they did that right. Right, and some people even talked about how an original score. Oddly enough, even though the songs didn't get performed, they liked how they got the composers to talk about the making of the song, yeah, and how you know their choices and their creative sort of artistry in creating these songs.

Jules: 1:12:32

I also thought that was appropriate. Those were all good decisions, so that was a really beautiful thing to see from the Academy. I hope they continue to do it from here on out. I agree, because it was absolutely beautiful to see.

Joseph: 1:12:42

It's also great to see, you know, someone like Lily Rose Depp on stage representing such a highly nominated film and such a highly successful film, even though she didn't get nominated right right and she got a lot of positive mentions for that. It's great that she gets a moment on stage for that right, and I will say, you know.

Jules: 1:12:57

Back to your point about the bafta getting it right. You know that maybe this is something that we'll mull over, either at the end of this episode or as we continue forward. You know, which is the academy? Rightta is the element that had most you know sway or you know sort of emphatic positioning, whatever you know in terms of deciding these Oscar voters, when, just two years ago, in 2022, you know it was the opposite the BAFTA did horrendously and got none of their winners to win at the Academy Awards, and the SAG did terrifically and all of their winners were replicated. So it's really, as we mentioned at the start of this episode, in this really odd place where we're not really sure right now where we stand, we're at a crossroad, it seems.

Jules: 1:13:53

You know with you know who really has the influence in determining these winners, because I'm not sure you can fully say it's the BAFTA, when two years ago they did so terribly or that it's a sad because this year they fell short.

Joseph: 1:14:05

Right? I mean, I think you're right there. I think there are other factors that we can talk about possibly having a large influence on the ceremony this year and possibly for years to come, which is both a good thing and a bad thing, but I'll save that for the end, when we sum up the entire thing, right?

Jules: 1:14:22

So I mean, everyone talked about the Adrian Brody speech Right, and so Adrian Brody ends up, I guess, having the longest best actor speech ever, which to me is incredibly odd to hear, because I just remember that Will Smith, king Richard, best actor speech being like two hours long, and you know it was an emotional one after the you know famous slap Um.

Jules: 1:14:43

and so when I heard that I was like, really, I mean, what did we count? Will Smith, um, because that seems long to me. And again, adrian Bode's speech was long. I think people have met the speech with some criticism that it was indulgent, that it was long. I thought it was very indulgent and that it had a sort of these, you know, kind of vague platitudes you know, and it wasn't focused enough with the kind of messaging he wanted to communicate.

Joseph: 1:15:09

You and I also talked about how he was maybe you know offhand sort of railroading some of his work in between this movie and the pianist.

Jules: 1:15:18

I think that's what I didn't like most. I didn't like that it felt as if he was saying that the work he was doing in between those two films was so subpar. You know, even if whatever projects you were a part of weren't what you had envisioned or what you had hoped, you know you still, I would like to think as a, as an artist, appreciate the collaboration and the process and the process, all the work that goes into creating a show, an episode, a film, a feature film.

Jules: 1:15:51

You know, it's not just about the ultimate outcome how good is it? It's really, it's really about you know making art together with all the ultimate outcome how good is it? It's really, it's really about you know making art together with all these individuals, all these craftsmen, all these filmmakers, all these artists who have, you know, these ambitions and these dreams and this creativity. It's the process that you, you know, should, you know, adore, that you should, you know, aspire to, you know, celebrate. You know, not necessarily how successful a film is that you were involved with was in that you were involved with how successful that film was or not, you know.

Jules: 1:16:25

So that didn't sit well with me. I felt like that's something he was inadvertently saying, and I was also kind of awkward because Kieran Culkin was in the audience and so was Jeremy Strong, and I know that he was a part of the succession team. I think he even got, you know, an Emmy nomination or two from his involvement in that. So it kind of felt like he was saying these are the two best things I've done with my life, or my career. Rather, I should say um, and everything in between has just been so subpar. And then, from now on, I hope to continue in this trajectory, to continue to do great work, as if saying the work in between was just not great, it was just below. Yeah.

Jules: 1:17:02

Below that. I really didn't like the way that that sounded, that kind of you know. You know it was just unfortunate, it just didn't sound great to me.

Joseph: 1:17:11

I didn't like the gum thing.

Jules: 1:17:12

Yeah.

Joseph: 1:17:18

You have to. You have to know your category is coming up. Swallow your gum or or do not chew the gum or throw it away in the previous category. Do not save your gum to the last minute so that you have to throw it at somebody yeah even if that somebody is your partner is your invitee, whatever.

Jules: 1:17:31

It's just not the best. Look, it doesn't good. And then the thing that I really didn't like also was when he asked the band to stop playing the music Hardly anyone can pull that off.

Joseph: 1:17:44

Hardly anyone can pull that off, and Adrian Bodie did not.

Jules: 1:17:46

No, and you know I get that it's hard, you're emotional, you're in the moment. You want to. You know you never know if you'll be back there ever again. And so you want to. You know, really take that, take it in, take in that spotlight, give thanks if you want to give thanks. You know. Just, you know, speak on behalf of the film, on behalf of your career, okay, I understand all that, but the way he, kind of you know, told the musical band okay, stop playing right now you know, stop playing.

Jules: 1:18:13

Not his first rodeo, you know not his first rodeo, the way it sounded, felt a little bit too.

Joseph: 1:18:17

It lacked tact.

Jules: 1:18:19

It felt kind of rude you know, it felt aggressive. Yeah, you know and possibly a little bit, you know, lacking understanding that he had been, you know, talking for a while. Right. And so kind of you know, you know, I'll wrap it up. You know, you know, I'll wrap it up, you know it hasn't been wrapped up in a while. Yeah, they played the music on him again.

Jules: 1:18:39

Right and so it just felt very stern and aggressive in a way that I don't think made him come across, I think, the way he would have liked. Yeah, and so I think you know there were several aspects about that speech that kind of dimmed a little bit his win, I think, which is unfortunate because, again, I think he's such a deserving winner. I think he gave such a great performance, a terrific performance. In my opinion he absolutely deserved to win.

Jules: 1:19:07

but people have just been talking about the speech now, you know, and so that's unfortunate to see as well.

Joseph: 1:19:11

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I definitely have final takeaways on this, but I'm going to save that for the end.

Jules: 1:19:17

Are you sure?

Joseph: 1:19:18

Yes, I'm going to save that for the end as a final takeaway, but you know it's good to see him win, other than you know the discussion that's been had about his speech. Very good performance and again leaning BAFTA's way, and we got it right.

Jules: 1:19:31

Right, and now we move on to the best director category. Uh, the favorite was Sean Baker for Nora. Um, we predicted Sean Baker for Nora. This became the third Oscar for Sean Baker to win this night. Um, I am particularly, you know, I'm so glad, uh, for Sean Baker having this moment. He's one of, you know, my favorite filmmakers. He's a huge inspiration for me as a filmmaker. Um, uh, his films, the themes he explores in his films, the characters that his films revolve around. It's a big inspiration for me. So it's really been, personally for me, a very beautiful thing to see, um, the moment he's had this year the celebration, uh, that there has been for his work this year, the celebration, uh, that there has been for his work. Um, just one of my favorite filmmakers and very happy to see him win this oscar um, and no surprise here, no surprise here, no surprise.

Joseph: 1:20:24

I think brady corbett had a little bit of momentum of some. I mean a little bit of a head start or not a head start, but a little bit of momentum with those wins at globe and bafta overall. The brutalist was picking up awards late in the night. Yeah.

Joseph: 1:20:38

So maybe there was some energy in the room for that, but the DGA has had a fantastic streak here and they continue to do so because they went with Onora. Right and so Sean Baker here, really no big surprise. And the DGA streak stays more or less alive, other than 1917 for Sam Mendes Right.

Jules: 1:20:59

And stays more or less alive other than 1917 for Sam Mendes Right, and it was nice to see, you know, a big, you know battle cry in that Sean Baker has in pointing out the importance of the theater experience.

Joseph: 1:21:07

He made it about the theaters.

Jules: 1:21:08

And you know that he also did the same at the DGA, At the DGA, and you know, I think that's a that's a cause he really cares about. I think it's a cause he really cares about. I think it's a very essential cause at this moment in time when we're losing theaters left and right.

Joseph: 1:21:19

Audience members ate it up. They ate it up at the DGA, they ate it up at the Academy Awards. I think it's a massive factor in why the film is able to sort of bridge the gap between voters who like voting for Parasite and voters who like voting for Oppenheimer. Just that idea that again, it's a film that is playing in theaters, where films belong, and so I think that's major, and I think that that to me, you know, leads me to one of my, you know, late takeaways, which I'll leave for the end again.

Jules: 1:21:49

Right, um, but uh. That's a message that you and I also feel very passionate about. And so you know, uh, a Sean Baker win representing. That is also a really beautiful thing to see. It's a win for that sort of passion to keep that longstanding, important cultural milestone tradition alive at a moment when it really needs the support.

Joseph: 1:22:13

Yeah, really needs the support. Yeah, I don't know if he did he quote it when he won best director that idea that neon kept this movie in theaters for like more than 100 days, I think I. I think he might have I know he definitely did at the dga, but I think he might have at the academy awards. And again, it's just this idea that he's something he's really passionate about very deserving cause. I think in that that the majority of the industry is in favor of that.

Jules: 1:22:36

Right, exactly. And then we get to one of the biggest categories of the night.

Joseph: 1:22:43

Hence why they left it second to last, second to last If they could have.

Jules: 1:22:46

they might have left it for last if they could have, and so a lot of people were anticipating what was going to happen. Was Demi Moore going to prevail, as she was the favorite after winning the SAG and the Globe and, I guess, the Critics' Choice? And was Mikey Madison going to surprise after her BAFTA win? Or was Fernanda Torres going to shock everyone by being, you know, the first winner in this category, the first Brazilian woman to win this category, but also the first winner to have not even won a SAG or been nominated for a.

Joseph: 1:23:20

SAG and um and win this category, but people on the carpet were talking about that idea that you know it's going to be one of the final awards of the night and Demi Moore is going to get such an emotional speech at the end.

Jules: 1:23:31

Well, her speeches have been absolutely terrific.

Joseph: 1:23:33

Sure, they have yeah.

Jules: 1:23:34

But don't count your chickens before they hatch. Right, exactly, and you and I were going out on a limb and saying that Fernanda Torres was going to win this category. None of these actresses, none of these actors, had faced Fernanda Torres yet. Right, this was their moment to be able to face her.

Joseph: 1:23:54

Yeah, exactly, and that it was able to muster a Best Picture nomination. Exactly, and that sort of showed how passionate the Academy was.

Jules: 1:24:01

Momentum was on its side. It had upset. It's been doing well in the box office.

Joseph: 1:24:04

It upset Emilia Perez at the end for International Film Right and, most importantly, I think, one of the most deciding factors for us, which again is another takeaway of mine no real person, right, right of mine. No real person, right, right. She's the real person to win if you're going to have a real person included in the quartet which they like to do which they like to do traditionally.

Joseph: 1:24:23

this feels like it would be fernanda torres and if you see the film again the film and that what it's about, so compelling for the moment we're living in that we thought that would prevail and not to mention that she's not an unknown actress, right, she's the daughter of Fernanda Montenegro, who, you know, as years go on, pretty famously lost this award to Gwyneth Paltrow For Shakespeare in Love. For Shakespeare in Love.

Jules: 1:24:49

Right, right, people remember that and so she wasn't. I'm not going to say she was most people's number two, she was everyone's number three. Right, you and I said that people were sleeping on Fernanda Torres. Right. And that she was going to win. Yeah, and we had a lot of faith in that, because you and I had a lot of faith that Demi Moore would lose. Yeah. Unfortunately. You know everyone was rooting for Demi Moore. You know absolutely everyone was rooting for Demi Moore. You know absolutely everyone was rooting for Demi. Moore yeah.

Jules: 1:25:18

No matter how you felt about the movie, it's just such a beautiful, poignant story. Her speeches have been killer. It's so beautiful to see her finally getting her flowers, as she's long deserved, for a very strong performance and the kind of performance that took a lot of bravery of film, uh, that you know she's not typically in, and again, it took a lot of bravery to be in that in that film and to be in that part, um, and so that was just something that, no matter how you felt, I think you were going to be happy for that. Win, right, um. But you and I were seeing a lot of red flags Voters were seeing. Voters were saying that they were being, you know, repulsed by the work. Right, there were just not enough people. We weren't hearing a lot of voters say how ecstatic they felt about it. We were actually hearing the opposite. Right.

Jules: 1:26:04

They didn't like it. How often are you going to vote for a film that you don't like very much? Yeah, in the top spot.

Joseph: 1:26:10

We had talked about the nature of the film being sort of a two.

Jules: 1:26:13

A two-hander with Margaret Qualley. A two-hander with Qualley.

Joseph: 1:26:15

The idea of not a lot of dialogue in the film. Yeah, not a lot of traditional Oscar chewy scenes.

Jules: 1:26:21

Right, and you know the genre bias, Of course.

Joseph: 1:26:25

The body horror genre bias which only Natalie Portman has beaten on her second nomination. Right, right.

Jules: 1:26:30

And even again, that film Black Swan, you know, is not as you know.

Joseph: 1:26:35

Quote unquote bonkers as this film you know kind of you know, you know uh certainly not as gory, right, um.

Jules: 1:26:42

But you know, by it's late, in its second act and its third act it's really going to these extreme lengths to, you know, um express its critique, which again is part of the experience, part of the film, um. So it makes sense for the film, but it's not going to be something that is going to be for everyone Right, and so there were just way too many red flags, she, and then, and then, to tap it all, to top it all off, she lost the BAFTA. Right.

Jules: 1:27:04

Which was an award that she needed to win, because the substance did well there.

Joseph: 1:27:09

Yeah, and Enora did poorly, poorly the the film that it lost to in that category. Mikey madison had done poorly up after so there was really no reason to not give that to demi more or to one of the other actresses right, and so all of that spelled big problems for demi more.

Jules: 1:27:25

So you and I felt very pretty solid, I think, as the red carpet was rolling and you saw how beautiful demi more looked. You know, and just everyone, like you said, prepared for thei Moore win and the speech, you and I were starting to feel could we be wrong?

Jules: 1:27:39

I mean, are we wrong? Everyone says we're wrong, and she was the clear favorite, but you and I in our gut, I think felt pretty solid that she was not going to win this category. Not for that, no. And so where we failed was that we thought that the biggest competitor was going to be Fernanda Torres.

Joseph: 1:27:55

We underestimated it.

Jules: 1:27:56

And actually it was the winner, mikey Madison, for Onora, who ended up winning this category. I will say personally, you know I was happy to see that she was certainly my pick of the category. She gives one of the absolute best performances of the year in my opinion. She's terrific in Onora. She's truly having a star's born moment in that film. There's so much range, there's so much talent in that performance.

Jules: 1:28:25

So seeing her win to me I'm not going to say it wasn't a shock, because I just felt that because of her young age and because she's not so, she's sort of a new, she's a new face for so many in the academy. And because of what young age? And because she's not so she's, she's sort of a new. She's a new face for so many in the academy. And because of what she's playing, you know, and how sort of confrontational that kind of material can be in the film uh, of anora, you know her, her, her as a stripper. You know that was going to be something that most voters were going to sort of. You know, hesitate to give the Oscar win to, but personally, for me I do think she was the best in the category and ultimately I think that that prevailed.

Jules: 1:29:06

I think most voters must have felt that and or the love for Nora was able to propel her to that number one spot. Whatever the case and we'll dig in a little bit now you know, I will say for me it was a shock to see her win, for the reasons I just mentioned. But it was a happy shock because I thought she so deserved the win in this category and she was phenomenal in an aura, absolutely terrific. But a shock nonetheless. I really thought that those factors her age, what she's playing were not going to help her prevail in this category, and I was dead wrong.

Joseph: 1:29:45

Yeah, I agree, I really didn't see Mikey happening here. I credit this again in large part to that BAFTA. I think they got all the acting winners correct, and I don't think that's incidental. They've gotten the majority of the winners correct, and I don't think that's incidental. They've gotten the majority of the night correct, except something like Best Director and Best Screenplay, where they did not give it to Onora but the Writers Guild Award and the DGA prevailed. You know, I was really surprised to see her up on that stage. I really thought Franny Torres had the winning recipe and stood out from the competition. It's hard for me to quote exactly where it comes from, other than the film was just that beloved and that again it was the BAFTA winner. I mean, you had also brought up the idea, which I think is important.

Joseph: 1:30:29

And we really have two foreign language performances, winning two acting Oscars.

Jules: 1:30:33

As soon as the you know win happened, I looked at you and I said you know, maybe we didn't put enough stock into that thing that I mentioned earlier, which is Zoey Saldana winning for a foreign film and then having Fernando Torres win for another foreign film and having those two foreign performances be a part of the quartet, which has never happened before. Right, that that was sort of you know a bridge too far you know, that they weren't going to give the quartet two spots to two foreign films.

Jules: 1:31:02

Right, that that felt a little bit. You know that maybe we should have paid more attention to that. I also want to say that the stat remained alive that I didn't put enough stock in, that I feel most people were putting stock in. I didn't think it mattered that much, or that Fernanda Torres, as you said, had the right recipe to derail that narrative and that narrative is no actor has won a lead acting Oscar since the start of the SAGs and not been nominated for a SAG award.

Jules: 1:31:30

I still remember when Kristen Stewart missed that SAG award and everyone you know went up and you know threw their hands up and said well, that's it, she's not winning. If she gets nominated. She's lucky to get nominated, because she's definitely not winning, because she missed that SAG. Right.

Jules: 1:31:44

And so, you know, there were people who were talking about that and I said well, you know it's different circumstances, it's a different kind of you know, she still won the Golden Globe drama, which has a really good track record. Yeah, um since 2000 fernanda torres, exactly, and so I thought you know that's not going to matter as much in this sort of chaotic year, in this chaotic best actors category, and I will.

Jules: 1:32:08

You know we we were wrong you know wrong because I think, as we mentioned, you know that foreign thing might have played a part here, and that sack thing might have played a part here, and that sack thing might have played a part here, as well, right, but if there was anyone to sort of beat that stat, in my opinion, it was fernanda torres for this movie, not just because it's a real person, not just because she is the daughter of fernanda montenegro, but also because that film manages to be a best picture nominee right and, I think, the only time we have two foreign language film nominees included among the top 10 in picture.

Joseph: 1:32:42

And it wasn't supposed to be there. So I thought the stars had aligned and I will say that I don't think the stars will align so perfectly ever again for there to be two foreign language performances to win. So I don't know if this is something that could ever happen to be perfectly honest, if two foreign language performances to win. So I don't know if this is something that could ever happen to be perfectly honest, if two foreign language films could ever win at the same time well, as you said, you know the academy is going in this new direction, so exactly you know it's becoming more international, and the more international we get, I think, the more chances of something like that occurring in the future.

Joseph: 1:33:12

I think that it can happen, but if ever there was a chance for it to occur. I think this would have been the year. At the same time, we talk about how important it is that she did not get in for that SAG, but you have Adrian Brody able to win two lead actor Oscars without winning a SAG ever. And so what is it? The SAG is important or the SAG is unimportant? Right.

Joseph: 1:33:32

And so it's in a really sort of, as you said, transitional place. But I do think that we learned that you know the SAG is important, for whether you're going to win or not, you need to at least have that nomination. I don't think we're going to be able to have two foreign language performances win. A lot would have to. The Academy would have to take yet another sort of evolutionary step, which I think will take some time to get there. And we also learned that it's not that important to be real, because now we have 2016, 2022, and 2024. Right.

Jules: 1:34:07

Where no real people were elected and they had options.

Joseph: 1:34:10

They had significant options and I would understand this win better if Mikey Madison, I think, had a more compelling filmography, if it was the same performance given by Margaret Qualley, who at this point has a more impressive filmography than Mikey Madison. There are young actresses who turn in amazing performances stars-born performances, as you said that lose, and so it's sort of a tough one for me to put my finger on, except to note that I think it's possibly a harbinger for the future, in both good and bad ways. How, how so well, just that idea that some of those things that you would hang your head on are less important.

Joseph: 1:34:58

Right, right, and some of those people have talked about the academy is getting younger and it's getting more international.

Joseph: 1:35:05

I think that that's all true, but I also think if there are, you know, award shows and steps in the campaign that are getting less important, you, not you and I talk about okay, so bafta misses a nora in some pretty big categories, right, screenplay, film, editing, eventually best picture when we talk about it right, but they get actress, right. The one place where I think the academy is headed or sort of solidified or calcified between this year and last year is that the top dog is Khan.

Joseph: 1:35:40

And if you want to be a movie that's competitive, you have to go to Khan Right and you have to sort of compete at Khan and do well at Khan, and a lot of things have to go your way.

Joseph: 1:35:48

I mean, I sort of said that had the Palme d'Or gone to Seat of the Sacred Fig instead of Enora, this could have been a different story. Had greta goeg not been the president, maybe would have gone to see a sacred fig and we might have had a different story. Right, right, um. Same thing with mila perez, right same thing with the substance. So many films are coming from khan that it feels like khan probably has the most influence on the oscars now, and I feel like that's a good thing, because you have a lot of good movies there and it's very international.

Joseph: 1:36:20

And it's very international and that's a bad thing, because they're not accepting every movie Right and they're not necessarily always the most objective, in my opinion. Again, this is a place that did not want to invite.

Joseph: 1:36:36

I tweeted, this did not want to invite mike lee's hard truths, right, and so, by virtue of that, a movie like hard truths will essentially never get in right? Uh, probably mike lee's film, however many he has left, will probably never get in. A lot would have to go right. Gretata Gerwig can't Q&A Mike Lee into an original screenplay nomination or Mary Ann Chabaptiste into an acting nomination. Neither can Barry Jenkins, short of her handing her truth to Paul Dior. It would be very difficult to see that film anywhere within the Academy because they're so sort of calcified in their tastes. I think the con influence, like I said, it's a double-edged sword.

Joseph: 1:37:26

There's good there, but I also think that there's significant bad. Right.

Jules: 1:37:31

Right, right, I also say these two factors about Mikey Madison winning Number one. Personally, I think it really helped that we as voters not we voters got to see on the campaign trail Mikey Madison much more often than they did Fernanda Torres. Yeah, and I think that mattered, because even though Fernanda Torres has that Globe win, which was hugely significant I think it's a big reason why I'm still here manage the Best Picture nomination. It's a big reason why I'm still here to manage the Best Picture nomination. She was not as present in the awards circuit, in the awards campaigning trail, as Mikey Madison was, and I think that was significant in that you're getting less face time with the voter I mean with the contender as a voter. But also the more face time that I think you have with a voter I mean, pardon me, with a contender the more I think you can sort of in a way compare their person to the performance they're giving.

Jules: 1:38:32

And Mikey Madison, in my opinion, is so different from the character that she's playing in Onora, the way she carries, carries herself. She's very soft-spoken, she sort of kind of wilts a little bit in a very endearing manner, you know, um, you don't have that sort of raw brash spunk, you know, of an aura and you have this very you know, uh, young and polite and kind and sort of you know, just in a way it just feels like Tia and Thesis of, uh, of the Onora character and I think voters, you know confronting that, seeing that more prevalent, you know, having that be a more prevalent aspect of the awards campaign, that kind of helped them appreciate the performance from Mikey Madison that much more. It was already strong to begin with. It was already one of the year's best to begin with in my opinion, but that only helped her case even more and I think Fernanda Torres could have done a similar probably not comparison or not, but certainly strengthened. You know the messaging of, you know the woman that she's playing and how important that is for you know the Brazilian people and how important it has been for Brazilian history and everything that that win would mean for the country.

Jules: 1:39:58

You know aspects of her performance and you know elements outside of her performance that could have been that much more strengthened and emphasized if voters got more face time with that contender throughout the process at the SAGs, at the BAFTA, you know, at the you know, you know post Golden Globe, just throughout the awards campaign trail as a whole and I think that that mattered. You know, I think that that had that was something that ended up helping Mikey Madison, that unfortunately, fernanda, because she was so absent and she was mostly a Golden Globe winner you know that that I think that hurt a little bit. I don't know if you kind of you know see where I'm going with this, but I think that it hurt.

Joseph: 1:40:43

I had never thought of that, but I don't know if you kind of you know see where I'm going with this, but but I think that it hurt.

Jules: 1:40:46

I had never thought of that, but I think that makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense, right? And I also want to say that I find it really interesting that every year, especially recently, the best actress category becomes like the most you know, dramatic category. You know where there's bound to be a surprise and people are just holding in their breath for a surprise to happen. And then the surprise happens and people feel different ways about it. You know, lily Gladstone was the favorite last year to win and she was going to make history too.

Jules: 1:41:15

And then Emma Stone ends up winning her second and people are like, what the hell, you know? And other people are like, thank God, you know, it's just you know. Other people are like thank god, you know, it's just, you know. This very dramatic emotional category for the oscars, for the, for the film community, for the cinephile community, for the oscar-added community, that I think it's just so interesting to see how, every year, the best actress just sort of you know, conjures up all this emotion and becomes this, you know, uh, spectacle in a way right, yeah this category.

Jules: 1:41:44

we're all just waiting for our winner to prevail and upset when it does it and, just you know, bragging to high heavens when it does, you know it just seems like every year, count on the best actress category to be, you know, competitive as possible, you know with uh, you know, stands on either side, and just you know. I want to call it like the event category of the year.

Joseph: 1:42:08

Right.

Jules: 1:42:08

It almost feels like it's going to be best actress.

Jules: 1:42:10

It's been trending that way at least, and this year and this year reached, you know, heights that we've never seen before you know, with the online community and the stand community, kind of ripping each other apart, finding whatever things we can do to undermine these campaigns yeah, again it's going in that fun, but let's not make it toxic. Yeah it's getting into that terrain where it's like it's such an event for people yeah that it's primed to become controversial, right, and primed to become, you know uh, divisive in a way, right and just you know know it's interesting. Like you said, it's very vulnerable. It can become very toxic very easily. Right.

Jules: 1:42:49

In this campaign and this award season. It certainly did Right, but I just find that interesting. Every year, count on Best Actress to be the chaotic category.

Joseph: 1:42:58

Yeah, no, I completely agree. It's been trending that way for a while. It'll be interesting to see if it stays that way for the foreseeable future, because it wasn't always that way, right? No, no.

Jules: 1:43:18

Back. When you know people are going to miss that competition, they're going to miss that you know event, event momentous. You know moment category, because, oh, it's so easy, we know who's going to win, right, you know because people want that in a way right people don't want it, but they do want to do right no, no, yeah, I agree.

Joseph: 1:43:35

I mean, I also think we're sort of in a in a weird place with something like actress, because I was going to say, you know, when it was a sure thing that kate plancher would win for blue jasmine.

Joseph: 1:43:46

Oh yeah, some of these actresses, amazing actresses, who have sort of figured into this race over and over again, like judy dench and meryl streep and helen mirren you know they're getting older and so they're not taking on as many roles and so you see them nominated less frequently, and that opens up the race right to new, new performers which is also exciting yeah right, and so that comes with with the territory right um, and actually best actor for a while, has been a little bit less competitive, a little more dull, a little bit you know where you're predictable. Predictable a little bit predictable a little bit, you know. Six, maybe six, seven people deep.

Joseph: 1:44:27

This year was really sort of low yeah um, because some, some performances never became as competitive, even something like jesse eisenberg in a real pain. But you're right, that's that's sort of the the trajectory of actors lately right, yeah, exactly.

Jules: 1:44:41

And then, finally, after the best director win, it became clear that Onora was going to win Best Picture. Had Onora lost this, it would have made absolutely no sense.

Jules: 1:44:48

Absolutely no sense. It would have been probably the shock of the night, right, and you know, it became clear after Best Director that it was going to be Onora's night and that and become the first filmmaker to win four Academy Awards for the same film on the same night, right, I think people had said that the last record holder was Walt Disney, but for two different films, I believe, or different films the same night, winning like four, I think.

Joseph: 1:45:16

Sean Baker won a lot A lot as we thought, we thought it was going to cap out at four and it ended up capping out at five, five, correct five, five, correct, yeah, five. And I will say also that Five of six, five of six.

Jules: 1:45:27

It only lost Yura Borisov and people were saying that afterwards that if there had been a casting award, possibly a Norm might have won that as well. Oh yeah, and possibly also someone floated the idea that possibly, if Kieran Culkin wasn't in the picture and there was someone less formidable in that category, possibly Yura Borisov could have prevailed and won that category.

Joseph: 1:45:52

Very interesting. Possibly. People are being emboldened online and on Twitter. But can you imagine? Because Kieran Culkin has enough to sort of be promoted into best actor, right?

Jules: 1:46:03

Right People have. Well, we'll get into best actor right. Right, people have. Well, we'll get into that possibly. But people have had an issue, One of the biggest issues people have with the quartet, which I personally think is one of the best quartets in the sense that many of them I think all of them would have been what I would have picked as the best, as the strongest in each category, and I'm a fan of all the performances to an extent, Some even more so than others, you know Mikey Adrian but I think people have an issue that it feels like the first year where four leads won. Right.

Jules: 1:46:34

You know, and there was really no supporting actor that won. Yeah, that's a point, that's a point. People want to make. People, I guess, want to make it more of a point, to make the supporting categories actually go to, you know, supporting performances or they consider true. You know, tried and true supporting performances.

Joseph: 1:46:52

I mean that sounds good. And so they bring up some sort of referendum to start to start regulating who qualifies for supporting and who doesn't, and you have to meet a certain time, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Then it's just going to get annoying. So unfortunately, this is just the pattern right now. It hasn't always been the pattern, nor do I think it will always be the pattern. I mean, judy dench won this for shakespeare in love right and that win speaks for itself.

Joseph: 1:47:15

I mean, I don't, I can't even comment on that right um, but so the once upon a time time didn't matter as much as in you could have a really short performance, and I'm sure we will get back there again at some point.

Jules: 1:47:27

Yeah, I think it also depends a lot on the contender, the circumstance, the film you're in. I think in another year Isabella Rossellini, with the career she's had, she could have prevailed with her eight minutes Right. You know just not against Zoe Zaldana, which is is kind of like a, which is a co-lead, and amelia paris exactly.

Joseph: 1:47:46

Um kind of interesting to think about, though. You know, had they promoted kieran colkin as a lead actor and because he's, you know, very flashy, flashier than jesse eisenberg, who's also wonderful in the film, because that were, if that were the case and it had gotten that screenplay nomination, would it? It have been watched enough, liked enough to crack that top 10 for Best Picture? You? Have to wonder. Sure Kieran Culkin probably does not win, but maybe a real pain does walk away with that Best Picture nomination.

Jules: 1:48:17

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. But anyway, anora walks out, breaks that record and was the clear favorite with five Academy Awards out of six. And I will say someone also mentioned this on Twitter that we're trending in that direction that the best picture winner ends up being someone who wins a great amount of awards the departed.

Joseph: 1:48:41

We voted the departed Right. Someone who wins a great amount of awards that departed right voted the departed right.

Jules: 1:48:44

But you know, besides 2020, which was nomadland, which only won three yeah, you know we're starting to get into that territory and I guess 2021, also coda, which was only nominated for three, but I won all three um 2022, 2023 and 2024.

Joseph: 1:48:58

The best picture winner was the film that won the most awards that night but I do think it's a little bit debatable, because there was really no reason why Oppenheimer would lose a category like Sound to Zone of Interest, except that Zone of Interest on the BAFTA. There's really no reason why Oppenheimer would lose a category like Adapted Screenplay, except American Fiction won at Toronto People's Choice Award, right.

Jules: 1:49:20

But I think people are more referring to this idea that the best picture is going to walk out with a large group of award awards, even if they don't win most of the categories or all the categories, like Onora Onora was only nine for six, whereas Oppenheimer had like 13.

Jules: 1:49:35

Even if you're not going to walk out, you know, with nine or 10 of those, you're still going to be, you know, the most winning film that year by a large margin, and I think that that to me, I like that and to me, that makes sense. Because what I don't like is a year like 2018 where Bohemian Rhapsody gets four Oscars out of its five and becomes the most winning Oscar film that night, with five nominations, winning four of them, and doesn't win best picture you know I'm not a big fan of that film, so I of them and doesn't win Best Picture. You know I'm not a big fan of that film, so I'm glad it didn't win Best Picture. But I prefer having Anora, everything Everywhere All at Once Oppenheimer win the most awards that night than having a film like Bohemian Rhapsody not win Best Picture but still somehow be the most awarded film that night. That doesn't make sense to me.

Joseph: 1:50:21

No, I agree with that. I just think it's interesting that, proportionally, onora won a lot more than Oppenheimer did, because Oppenheimer, I think, doesn't even pull in half because it only won six Again.

Jules: 1:50:32

Iron man 13. No, it won seven.

Joseph: 1:50:33

It won seven oh excuse me, it pulls in a little bit more than half, but if sort of follows the trajectory of something like the Departed, which the Departed out of five nominations won four Right right.

Joseph: 1:50:43

And so out of six Nora wins five. So proportionally it wins a lot. And so I think you're right, they're trending that way. I think they're trending to if you're the best picture film and you're the favorite, I don't know, maybe we're not going to see too many splits in the future between picture and director, with sort of the shape the academy is taking and also the sort of, I think, more embraced understanding position that um filmmaking is a director's medium and so with this more international, possibly younger base, you know that's even more prevalent, this sort of understanding right so it's going to be harder to kind of, you know, break up the two right, and we sort of talked about how nora was sort of understanding.

Joseph: 1:51:23

So it's going to be harder to kind of, you know, break up the two Right, and we sort of talked about how Nora was sort of a perfect beast in terms of, if you're into arthouse films, you're going to like it. If you're into broad comedies, you're going to like it. If you're into more sort of dramatic independent fare, you're going to like it. If you're an international voter and you're into sort of, you know, discussions about, uh, international sort of relations, the movie also serves that purpose as well, and so it really had enough to please everyone, right. It was enough to win the palm d'or, it was enough to win the oscar, only the second movie to do so right after parasite and again a parasite.

Jules: 1:51:57

Another movie, that again, there's just enough to please everyone, even with subtitles on it right, right, and so I believe parasite won four out of six, also out of six similar four out of six, but still not five.

Joseph: 1:52:08

Yeah, um, and so, yeah, I think that that was interesting. I think everything you've been you've been saying is is on point and so anora was the favorite.

Jules: 1:52:19

Uh, very early on to see, it was going to be an anora night. And again, sean baker breaks history, history and that's all she wrote.

Joseph: 1:52:26

I mean. Well, here are my takeaways. We've already talked about horror. Genre still needs a lot of work If you're going to sort of climb that mountain very difficult to launch a campaign on horror.

Joseph: 1:52:38

You need a lot of support from your distributor. You need a lot of support from your distributor. You need a lot of support from where the star is in the industry and sort of who's making the film. Is it the first time we're hearing about them? So that's one thing. Another thing is real people. Real people. I think optional in this new academy. I think optional in this new academy. Not that impressive to you know Timothee Chalamet to learn how to play the guitar and play the harmonica and sing like Bob Dylan. It's just not as impressive. Same thing with Fernando Torres, I think. Another takeaway is the gender bias is real and I don't think that's going anywhere. Right. Timothee Chalamet cannot win on his second nomination at 29 years old and Mikey Madison can win on her first nomination in lead actress in her 20s 25. Not the youngest actress to win?

Joseph: 1:53:33

of course Still not, but still one of the younger actresses to win, and that's something that has existed and is going nowhere Right. We also know that Club Zero is real, and some people have sort of debated that A Complete Unknown was a strong contender for the sound category. But we had talked about how, whenever the Academy has forced 10 films into Best Picture, a minimum of three have walked out with nothing, and so this year we have a new low.

Joseph: 1:54:00

We have a new low with two, but we still have two. And it wasn't just the obvious Nickel Boys, which was only competing in two categories, but it was even something like Uncomplete Unknown, which was in director and nominated eight times. Right, we know, that's real, I think. Another takeaway for me personally is I think that I'm at a place, after seeing the Oscars for so many years. I'm at a place after seeing the Oscars for so many years. I'm at a place to sort of feel that if that is the case and young men cannot win this category, is it possibly a waste to be nominating them? Right.

Joseph: 1:54:42

I mean they have really close to no chance at winning this. And if that's true, I mean, wouldn't it possibly be more competitive to invite another actor who is in that 30 range that you're more open to sort of giving the award to? That's what I think. And then the other thing I would say to that is I'm not sure that I'm on board anymore with any actor winning two Academy Awards. I've seen this enough times and I know all the double winners and some of them are truly. I think all of them give very good performances and are wonderful actors and some of them are absolutely iconic actors. You know Daniel Day-Lewis, meryl Streep, denzel Washington. Anthony.

Joseph: 1:55:24

Hopkins, anthony Hopkins, anthony Hopkins Wonderful actors Frances McDormand I adore. I'm not sure any actor requires two Oscars. Oscar history is so limited in nominees and even more limited in winners that I just don't think that there's a good enough reason anymore to give any actor to. It's hard for me to sort of justify it, despite how great they are. I think you win and you have your name in the books and you build your legacy and you don't need more Oscars to build that legacy. You know, I don't think Day-Lewis or Jack Nicholson, the wonderful Gene Hackman, needed multiple Oscars to be, you know, some of the best actors that have ever lived To cement that legacy, to cement that legacy. And so sometimes it just gets a little bit repetitive, right, and sometimes, a lot of the times, people win for films that, or actors win for films that, or actors win for films that people will debate isn't their best performance, and that's going to happen, that's unavoidable, but I'm not sure that it merits the idea of then giving them the award for then what is truly their best performance.

Joseph: 1:56:34

So you talk about emma stone and some people don't think that her best performance is la la land right and some people want her to win for poor things, that she wins, and she's a wonderful actress and she's wonderful in both films and I definitely think that she had a very deserving performance in Poor Things. Do I think that she needs two Oscars? No, I don't. I would rather see another one of her peers get that award. The same thing goes with someone like Sean Penn and you know, I just I feel pretty firmly now, believing that we don't need to have actors win multiple Oscars, that all we're doing is sort of getting to a point where certain actors won't be up for the award again and certain actors are going to age out without that award.

Joseph: 1:57:20

So I mean Anthony Hopkins, one of the best ever, right, two Oscars. Peter O'Toole, one of the best ever also, and no Oscars right. And so at a certain point it gets a little bit absurd the idea that we're handing out something that is quote, unquote, very rare to the same person over and over again. So I'm kind of against that now. I think I just don't think there's it's really all that worth it, to be perfectly honest. And the other thing I'll say is you know, I was sort of the first one to sort of bang the drum for this, is it? James mangled is either going to be nominated for best director here for a complete unknown, or he will probably just not be nominated, and like taylor hackford, he was nominated in this category, which is wonderful, very good director, although there are wonderful directors who will never be nominated for this award, have yet to be nominated for this award.

Joseph: 1:58:13

One thing that sort of becomes clear to me is that the urgency isn't there necessarily to give an award to isabella rossellini because she's 72, or Jure Fiennes because he's been nominated here three times, and because the urgency isn't there, we're sort of entering this academy that's getting younger and more international, where these sort of actors are are sort of the highest they'll be able to achieve. More or less, in my opinion, is that nomination Right? And so when Sean Baker wins so many, which I think he's very deserving it's a very deserving film and he's been working for a long time I think it's very worthy. I think it's very worthy. But I also think that I had pointed out that can Sean Baker win an Academy Award before Paul Thomas Anderson can? And obviously he can, and he can win four before Paul Thomas Anderson can, and so my gut says that, as amazing as a filmmaker he is, there are just filmmakers who will not win an Academy Award, and Paul Thomas Anderson is probably one of those filmmakers.

Joseph: 1:59:28

He has a film coming out next year and maybe I'll eat my words, but I guess that's where I'm sort of feeling it right now is that you win on this sort of perfect moment where everything has coalesced, and if that moment hasn't materialized then it probably gets more difficult for it to ever be accomplished. You know someone like Quentin Tarantino who handed Sean Baker the Oscar for director. I'm not sure that he will cross the line to win the Oscar for best director. I think he has two Oscars already. That's true, he does Right, but I don't think that he'll win that Best Director one. And I think this kind of goes with the idea that Marnie Scorsese was yet again up for 10 awards last year and they didn't really give the movie anything, and that's not new. They've actually done that to Marnie Scorsese a couple of times.

Jules: 2:00:20

Certainly, I think, something like Gangs of New.

Joseph: 2:00:22

York, the Irishman, and so there's just this idea that Martin Scorsese, a lot of stars have to align for him to win a second Best Director award, because the first one came so late in his life, unfortunately, and without that perfect moment coalescing, just the timing never adds up, unfortunately. And then when you look at someone like Onora, the timing added up perfectly. And so how many Sean Baker films have been ironed for an Oscar before? Just one for Willem Dafoe, the Florida Project, right. And how many have Christopher Nolan's films racked up nominations for? And he's only at two right Director and picture.

Joseph: 2:01:03

So without that sort of moment, sort of coalescing, you're sort of reach, I think, a certain ceiling that is very difficult, very difficult to overcome. I think I've already stressed that, in my opinion, all the power has now segued into Khan and I think con has always demonstrated their willingness to sort of spotlight really worthwhile films, and I think that there's problems with sort of putting all the power in one place, right, that could be a problem, right, because they have their own interests and that could definitely show up or taste, or taste yeah, and the last thing I'll say is that emilia perez blew up spectacularly at the end after sort of usurping all the energy sort of midway into the season.

Joseph: 2:01:58

But I'm kind again with that wonderful speech that Sean Baker gave. That seemed like the crowd ate up about the importance of theatrical. I don't think Netflix can ever win Best Picture. I think that they're out of the race. I think it doesn't matter if it's Emilia Perez or if it's Roma, or if it's the Power of the Dog or if it's Onora. As long as you put Netflix in front of Onora, onora is going to lose. As long as you put Netflix in front of Coda, then Coda is going to lose. And so if Netflix is going to lose every single time that it is up for best picture, is there any point to nominating it for best picture? Aren't you just taking away the spot from someone who could be more competitive? And, like I said, I certainly think that the industry right now is going to a place or or the academy awards where they want to nominate more films that are going to come out in theaters and make a dent in theaters, and certainly the international community is going to feel that way yeah yeah.

Joseph: 2:02:59

so I think it was difficult for netflix in the past. I think they didn't get it done this time and I think that history kind of showing that they will not get it done. They will not get it done until something like the theater going experience is dead, or every movie took off that year from going to theaters.

Jules: 2:03:17

Or maybe they have to sort of remodel their sort of approach to how they do streaming versus theater experience, because they can still technically be possibly, you know, the Apple TV winner of CODA. You know, because I think it had a theatrical release.

Joseph: 2:03:34

I guess enough of one Can they really walk back though what their legacy is, which is, you know, minimal theaters, minimal theatrical window legacy is which is, you know, minimal theaters, minimal theatrical window they're gonna give.

Joseph: 2:03:47

Greta Gerwig's Chronicles of Narnia, imax, give it an IMAX release, and I'm sure they're gonna give an expanded window.

Joseph: 2:03:51

But can they ever really walk back the sort of damage that they've done, I guess, in their reputation and sort of standing up to the idea that streaming a film is just as good as watching it in a theater? That's sort of difficult for me to imagine. Not only would they have to do what you said, which is increase their theatrical window, increase their theatrical outreach, but it would have to be such an amazing movie to walk back what has essentially been their point of view for all these years, and I'm not sure they're going to be able to do it. And so, at this point, I think that Netflix needs to maybe reconsider how much money they're spending on campaigning these movies. I already know that they have reconsidered how much money they're spending in making these movies. Right, they've, they've done, they've done, they've pulled the plug on some of their auteur films, should we say, and focusing more on films that are marketable. Of course, amelia perez, something that they bought, not something that they made which interestingly enough didn't do well in streaming, which did not do well in streaming.

Joseph: 2:04:56

That's why they're not going to make them anymore. I think they're willing to buy them but not make them. So the the roma days of making films like that and power the dog. I think those days are over. I think at this point, they can buy a nora or amina perez and they're going to lose the oscar anyway, so why buy it? They're not even doing well on their streaming service. I think what the industry is going to require is for smaller distributors to step up. Whether it's distributors to step up, whether it's janice or metrograph that is up and coming. Certainly a24 and neon are there, uh, places like um magnolia, magnolia or roadside attractions.

Joseph: 2:05:33

The door is open for them to pick up movies and campaign them. Well, because netflix is not winning any oscars and I think if everyone gets on the page that we know it's not going to win a Best Picture Oscar, then we can just leave it off Best Picture. And so what's one of my takeaways is, if you're a movie next year and you're going to Cannes, the blowback of being distributed by Netflix, I would argue, is not worth it, and I would extend that to Amazon as well.

Jules: 2:05:59

That's what I was going to say.

Joseph: 2:06:00

What about Amazon to Amazon as well, that's what I was going to say. What about Amazon? I think that you know it's not the same Amazon that helped release Manchester by the Sea, and so it's very difficult for me to imagine that Amazon is going to be able to ride that sort of Amazon MGM deal and hide behind the MGM label and now be a prestige distributor and be able to hold on to the Bond legacy. I think that's going to sour really quick.

Joseph: 2:06:27

I think that the Nickel Boys gets in because the Plan B label is powerful enough Other than that no good really came from being a film associated with Amazon this year, and so, again, anyone who's campaigning for an Oscar next year and sort of expecting Amazon to make the difference, I would argue that that's not the case. If you're an MGM film, the same thing because you're essentially Amazon. Now I just feel like you're just losing the respect of the industry. You have to have a lot of power in the people who made it. Someone like Plan B, even a quality film like Challengers, couldn't get on here for anything. Right.

Joseph: 2:07:06

Right. So I would argue that you need to try to stay away from Amazon as well, and it just goes to Sean Baker's speech. You know, the industry or the Academy Awards, I should say want to see films that are released for upwards of 90 days, upwards of 100 days, right In theaters with a large outreach. I think that that's going to be key to any film campaigning from this moment forward. So I think, if you're Netflix, you should just bow out by now, and I think if you're a Netflix voter and you're just voting for the movie and you don't vote for this distributor in front of it, you're sort of wasting your vote.

Jules: 2:07:47

Well, I think a lot of those points are very fascinating and certainly a lot of food for thought, valid in sort of this sort of as you were saying earlier, this transition period that we're in, where it's sort of somewhat confusing, somewhat mysterious, somewhat unknown. You know what's the future ahead, you know what path are we going to take from here on out? Clearly, the academy has changed and it's changed in a way that people 10 years ago would not have seen. And you know, with that change comes even, you know, greater change in all areas involved with not just the Academy but the film industry, and you know where these artists want to spotlight, you know, or what they want to spotlight, what they want to celebrate. So I think next year is going to be interesting to see what the next chapter is. Yeah, I agree.

Jules: 2:08:47

Well, that was our deep dive into the Oscars ceremony, the Oscar winners, how we did, what we failed at, what we got right, and this sort of closing chapter of this Oscars 2024-2025 season. It's been a very chaotic season, one of the most chaotic in recent memory, and now everyone is sort of just kind of deflated. You know, I think the moment after the Oscars, everyone who's a part of this sort of feels, this collective sort of quote unquote deflation. Yeah.

Jules: 2:09:26

You know you're exhausted, exhausted, you're mentally drained and also I don't know. It's sort of like you put so much energy into thinking about this and now it's over and you're kind of like, oh, I guess that's it now.

Joseph: 2:09:38

Now what.

Jules: 2:09:39

You know, yeah, this feeling that I think all of us who are tracking this fuel and so, yeah, what now is? You know, your guess is as good as mine. You know, we'll, we'll, we'll see what happens here on four.

Jules: 2:09:53

You know, from here on out, yeah um, but anyway, so that's the end of this chapter and we'll be back next week with our next episode, tackling a new aspect, um, of the race that just finished and, uh, the race that's coming up. We'll see where we uh, what we, what we tackle specifically in our next, in our next episode, um, but until then, uh, this is jules and I'm joseph and it's been a pleasure.

Jules: 2:10:28

The music on this episode entitled Cool Cats was graciously provided by Kevin MacLeod and incompetechcom, licensed under Creative Commons by Attribution 3.0. H-t-t-p colon forward slash forward slash creativecommonsorg. Forward slash licenses. Forward slash, buy. Forward slash 3.0.

Joseph: 2:10:55

Disclaimer the Academy Anonymous podcast is in no way affiliated or endorsed by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.