Oscar Season 2025-2026: Our take after watching Oscar favorites! HAMNET, TESTAMENT OF ANN LEE, NUREMBERG, NO OTHER CHOICE, WAKE UP DEAD MAN, IS THIS THING ON, TRAIN DREAMS and more!

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On this episode of ACADEMY ANONYMOUS:

• Governors Awards - contenders show up in force to gain an edge in the Oscar race
• Honorary Oscars vs. Competitive Oscars - is there really any substitute for the real thing?
• Gotham Award nominees back the big guys and leave the small films in the shadows, polarize indie film community
• FRANKENSTEIN winning audiences across the globe on Netflix, can Guillermo del Toro and Jacob Elordi sneak in?
• Emma Stone and Jesse Plemmons looking to work their Oscar magic again with Yorgos Lanthimos in BUGONIA
• HAMNET - the real deal or overhyped?
• THE TESTAMENT OF ANN LEE - masterpiece or misfire?
• NUREMBERG - flying under the radar but building steam
• Did Netflix miss the Best Picture train on TRAIN DREAMS
• WAKE UP DEAD MAN angling nominations for Josh O'Connor and Glenn Close
• Economic and financial woes may just be the golden ticket for Park Chan-wook and NO OTHER CHOICE
• Academy Awards and Searchlight Pictures likely to squander Bradley Cooper's best film - IS THIS THING ON
• Jeremy Allen White's SPRINGSTEEN: DELIVER ME FROM NOWHERE hoping to survive disappointing start
• Sydney Sweeney's CHRISTY at the crosshairs of the culture war
• Jennifer Lawrence and Robert Pattinson launch DIE MY LOVE to $2 million opening! And a "D+" from audiences!
• Amazon MGM backs the wrong contender and fumbles Oscar worthy Tessa Thompson and Nina Hoss in HEDDA

Chapters

• 0:39 Let the Oscar campaigns begin! Hollywood legends get their due at the Governors Awards
• 8:37 The Gotham Awards flirt with controversy, polarize indie film lovers
• 26:31 FRANKENSTEIN heats up on Netflix! How high can it go at the Oscars?
• 32:37 BUGONIA too cold for Oscar voters? Or can Emma Stone and Jesse Plemmons muscle the film in?
• 41:57 HAMNET good but not great, no match for ONE BATTLE AFTER ANOTHER
• 58:56 THE TESTAMENT OF ANN LEE splits the podcast! Sure-thing or near miss?
• 1:16:38 Houston, we have a sleeper contender! NUREMBERG makes a splash with audiences
• 1:28:12 Can TRAIN DREAMS finally get the Oscar glory denied to SING SING?
• 1:40:31 Can WAKE UP DEAD MAN break the KNIVES OUT acting curse?
• 1:50:06 NO OTHER CHOICE timely enough for Park Chan-wook to breakthrough?
• 1:54:35 Bradley Cooper's quietest film IS THIS THING ON may also be his best
• 2:01:19 Jeremy Allen White wrestles for final Best Actor slot with SPRINGSTEEN
• 2:11:45 Sydney Sweeney's CHRISTY can't land a knockout
• 2:24:34 Jennifer Lawrence's DIE MY LOVE edging out Rose Byrne's IF I HAD LEGS I'D KICK YOU
• 2:38:52 Tessa Thompson and Nina Hoss are dark horses for HEDDA

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:14

Hey everyone, and welcome to a new episode of the Academy Anonymous podcast where we are breaking down all the latest news and updates on the Oscar race. I'm your co-host Joseph.

SPEAKER_02: 0:25

And I'm your other co-host, Jules.

SPEAKER_03: 0:28

Um, and we have a lot to talk about because we've seen a lot of movies, a lot of contenders. We finally have screened them, um, a lot of awards profiles that we're gonna do one by one. But before that, why don't we start off by saying a few uh current events that I think are important to mention? So, what's been going on?

SPEAKER_02: 0:46

Well, one of the biggest things is the governor awards just passed. Right. And that's a big uh, you know, event spotlight where we get to see a lot of the uh films and um actors, especially who are campaigning. So if you're planning on campaigning and you're planning to uh you know participate in award season, you usually make an appearance here, so it's always interesting to see who shows up and who doesn't show up right in a way. Um they were honoring Tom Cruise.

SPEAKER_03: 1:17

Uh but it was a big deal for a lot of people, right? Yeah, because he finally won an Oscar, it was an honorary one, right? Um actually what's kind of funny is that they're sort of starting the campaign for next year, right? Because he's working with Inyaritu. Yeah. And Iaritu presented him the award. Oh, I know. So yeah, Inyaritu had a whole speech, you know, about Tom, and then Tom got the award from him. Very interesting. And so the campaign for 2026 starts now for Tom Cruise um to win that lead actor Oscar. Right. But so they recognized him. Who else did they recognize? Dolly Pardon. Uh Dolly Pardon, right? Who is I believe a two-time Oscar nominee for original song? Well, when we I know Trans America and 9 to 5. 9 to 5. So 1980 and I think 2005. And Trans America was a really that was I thought I really liked that song a lot.

SPEAKER_01: 2:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 2:04

Um, never been nominated as an actor.

SPEAKER_01: 2:06

No.

SPEAKER_03: 2:07

Um, as far as I know, she did not attend the ceremony because she's having some health issues. And so we send our very best to her. We love Dolly Pardon. Oh, I adore everyone adores. Dolly Pardon for president. Um and so my actually my favorite recognition though at the governor's awards was for production designer Wynn Thomas, who I absolutely adore. Um, I grew up on Mars Attacks, he's a production designer there, but he's worked on so many incredible Spike Lee films, including the best Spike Lee film, which is Malcolm X.

SPEAKER_01: 2:39

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 2:39

Um, and he was he was even the production designer of A Beautiful Mind, which was a best picture winner. And he he has never been nominated for an Oscar. That's nuts. And so, like to me, that's heartbreaking because even someone like Tom Cruise and Dolly Bardin, they've been nominated. And Wynn Thomas has done nothing but like grade A work in movies that have been nominated for um a bunch of different categories and had has even one best picture, a beautiful mind, and he has never been mentioned. So I I loved that.

SPEAKER_02: 3:08

I will say, you know, that just spotlights a big issue with the Academy Awards as a whole, this whole you know, institution, which is that so many worthwhile contenders slip through the cracks, and meanwhile, there's an inconsistency, and other people get a bunch of uh mentions and recognition, and other people just don't. So there's always this longing for you know consistency that's always seems like it's lacking.

SPEAKER_03: 3:32

Yeah. And the final honoree, I think, was Debbie Allen, who uh who I know from uh fame, um, actress, choreographer. Um actually, I did not know that she was actually a producer on uh on uh Steven Spielberg's film Amistad um in 1997, which didn't get an I for Best Picture, but um but she was a producer on that. Now it's that's that's great.

SPEAKER_02: 3:52

Um And I also say that my problem with the governor awards, I've heard that it's one of the best ceremonies to attend. It's private. Private ceremony. It's a private ceremony. I think I've heard from from from people who've attended that it's you know quite special, quite intimate, uh, quite lovely. I think they sit you in a table with, you know, uh other crafts, uh, other filmmakers, other craftsmen and women uh who are you know the bread and butter of this film industry who you might not know. And it's an opportunity for you to exchange um communication. Uh so an actor might get to know a sound designer, and a makeup artist might get to know an editor. So, you know, there's something very, very, very quite lovely about that. But I do take issue with the Academy Awards using like the governor awards sometimes as a kind of fail-safe. You know, we're not gonna give you an Oscar, or we rent out of chances to give you an Oscar, so I guess we'll give you an honorary Oscar.

SPEAKER_03: 4:47

The actual the actual winners, right?

SPEAKER_02: 4:49

Yeah, um, and so that's sort of I guess meant to replace the fact that you know we're just not gonna give you an Oscar. I agree. You know, like uh Angela Bassett won it last year, and that was you know, off the heels of losing for Black Panther in 2019. Samuel Jackson won one. Samuel Jackson won one. So sometimes it just feels like a you know, this is how we can fix our errors. So let me ask you a question. And I and I take and I take issue with that.

SPEAKER_03: 5:12

So you are you of the opinion that it is not a substitute? Like, do you think that it that Wynn Thomas's honorary Oscar is a substitute for how many times he should have been nominated at the Oscars and he failed, they failed to give him one nomination throughout his career?

SPEAKER_02: 5:29

I would say that in my opinion, in my personal view, it's not a substitute because it's a ceremony that doesn't happen live. It's private, and it's more of a career achievement than it is a specific, you know, uh work that you did that's being highlighted by your peers.

SPEAKER_03: 5:48

Um it's not the same, right? It's just not the same thing. It's not the same. Imagine, imagine. I mean, I think Wynn Thomas has had an incredible career, and I think he's one of the best production designers working in the US. But imagine what would have happened had he gotten some of the recognition that he deserved working on those Pike Lee films. Yeah. Imagine what would have happened for his career, but certainly what would have happened like for the art form.

SPEAKER_02: 6:10

You know, I think every I think every filmmaker in this industry, you know, yearns to have that moment of being actually recognized for something that you did, a film that you worked on by your peers, and having that sort of nationwide global platform uh for people to see, you know, your work being celebrated. Right. You know, not just people in the industry, but people just all around the entire world. Right. Everybody wants that. So, you know, I just don't think that, you know, a a career achievement award as great as that is replaces that.

SPEAKER_03: 6:45

I I would agree with that. And I also think that like there are more egregious levels of it. So like Tom Cruise has yet to win, and that's I think problematic. But he's been handsomely nominated, yeah, and he's had great films and great films of for best picture. And there's every reason to believe that he is going to have an opportunity to win a competitive Oscar. That may not be the case, you know, for Wynn Thomas, you know, who who's a little bit pickier about the projects he does now.

SPEAKER_00: 7:13

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 7:13

Um, so I do think you know it gets a little bit more egregious. Like I would have loved to see Dolly Pardon nominated as an actor.

SPEAKER_02: 7:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 7:20

You know, um, Best Little Horror House in Texas. I I love that movie.

SPEAKER_02: 7:23

I love her and Steel Magnolias.

SPEAKER_03: 7:25

Steel Magnolias. You know, so she's she's such a a memorable actor, right? That you overlook everything that she contributes to a project, but you know, over time, 25 years later, 20 years later, you realize she's she's just a special actor on screen. Um, and so I do feel like there are levels of how egregious it can get. And so, you know, for Dolly Pardon, for example, I I would have wanted her to have been nominated for a competitive Oscar at some point, right? Um, I I don't know if that's in the books anymore, and that's hard and it's kind of heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_02: 7:57

Yeah, yeah. So I you know, I have mixed feelings about it, but I I do think that as a celebration in and of itself, I think it is quite special. And I like how they, you know, I like what they do.

SPEAKER_03: 8:08

Do you like that? Because when we were growing up, they used to have it in the actual ceremony.

SPEAKER_02: 8:11

Do you like that change? I like yes, I like having a having it be its own thing. I just think that it should be possibly to be a little bit more on par with the Academy Awards, it should be live. Oh, that would be great.

SPEAKER_03: 8:28

Yeah, like they could do like a whole Oscar weekend and do like the governor's award one night. And that would be really nice. I I agree. I hadn't thought of that, but that would be really, really cool. Yeah. Um, I think the other big current event that I wanted to at least mention was we got our first precursor, which is that the Gotham Film Awards announced their nominees and um some interesting choices. Um, I I don't know what you made out of them. I know that there were some significant changes made to these um to some of these nominations. Like, for example, there's a top 10 for best picture instead of a top five, and the Gotham Film Awards don't have any kind of loyalty to anyone. So to a certain degree, they didn't they didn't tell anyone that there's there's gonna be 10 spots or that there's gonna be two script categories. They're just you know, they're picking uh members of the industry to be jury members and then making coming up with nominations.

SPEAKER_02: 9:14

Well what I like about the Gotham Awards is that they're categories that are selected by a jury, and I think it's usually, you know, uh writers, journalists, press press. Um, and so I like the idea of a group of collaborators getting together and deciding the nominees. I actually think that that's the direction that we need to move in for the Academy Awards. The Academy Awards, and we've talked about this several times, should be um like the SAG Award Committee, uh like the Cam Film Festival that has a special jury um that everyone you know sort of freaks out about when it's announced. You know, they should have a small group of people, a committee that is selecting the nominees that's fairly representative, you know, of the awards of the body itself, uh of the voting body itself. It certainly has to be representative of that, but they should select who the nominees are, and I think that that would go a long way to fixing a lot of inconsistency issues that the Academy Awards have. So that's something that I quite like about the Gotham Awards.

SPEAKER_03: 10:22

Um I mean, we know that, for example, some people commented on how one battle after another was essentially the most nominated film, I think, at the Gotham. And I think that I read somewhere even maybe in its history, and it is a film made for$150 million from Warner Brothers that showed on you know 70 millimeter iMac. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 10:41

That's that's the other thing that was that's the that's the other side of the coin. I would say that the thing I really dislike about the Gotham is that they've transformed from being this platform for independent cinema into now sort of joining the other awards bodies uh of being, you know, uh a platform for Oscar Fodder, Oscar Punditry. So now it's trying to have its cake and eat it too. So you get the uh films that will show up in the independent circuit, but you'll also get films that are certainly packed for Oscar nominations. I think that leaves a door open for the organization to be, you know, kind of negotiating with these bigger studios for, you know, uh nominations and whatnot, you know, which is part and parcel with many of these award body organizations. Um and so I think in a way they've lost some of their identity, and I think a crucial part of their identity. And so that's what I think is the big bummer about the Gotham Awards. That being said, the the the committees that are selecting the nominees know what they're doing. So usually the nominees are pretty, pretty fucking good. Um and they are a nice representation of some of the best um that we've had in cinema this year. But I really dislike how we you know, how the Gotham was really a place to highlight films and performances and filmmakers that were not gonna get a chance to get highlighted throughout the rest of the award circuit because they're just not part of a bigger studio or part of a bigger movie. And so we've lost some of that. And I think that, you know, that that sucks.

SPEAKER_03: 12:14

I think that's what some people are sort of complaining about, and and feel likewise that there's, you know, maybe a missed opportunity here because you have so much of the inflated punditry that's gonna occur, you know, at the end of the year and at the beginning of the next. Um, and the Gotham has kind of felt like a separate thing. It kind of almost felt like the Gotham to a certain degree was the less populist version of the Independent Spirit Awards.

SPEAKER_02: 12:40

Um, now it kind of feels, as you said, where like you know, I would even say it's it's transcended the Independent Spirit Awards because the Independent Spirit Awards still would never nominate a movie like the Wild Office. They're not allowed to, they're not allowed to nominate a lot of it. Exactly. So in a way, like it's it's now this weird kind of like child between like the Independent Spirit Awards and the Golden Globes.

SPEAKER_03: 13:02

Oh, that's interesting. Because I will say that the second most nominated film was we had made an article and I had written some of our predictions for the awards, and I was very much of the opinion that it was going to be a great morning for if I had legs, I'd kick you. Right. And it was the second most nominated film. And that certainly feels to me like the film that was going to be nominated among the five Gotham Best Picture nominees, and it was probably going to be the winner, right? Along with, you know, if you're looking at if you're looking at that list, I think it might have been it might have been If I had legs that kick you, familiar touch, lurker, east of wall, some of the smaller films, right? Yeah. And so they're kind of stuck in that weird place between, you know, one battle after another breaks records for the most nominated film, and at the same time, the second most nominated film is if I had legs that kick you. Right. Um, and so it's kind of odd. It also used to be that like when they give their award for, you know, whatever category it is, you would hope it was gonna give some kind of leverage to the film that won it. I won't lie. When Honora lost last year to a different man, I was over the moon. I was over the moon, and I like Onora, but the just the audacity to say that, yeah, we're gonna go ahead and give it to a different man, which was so underseen, so undervalued by audiences, I I I loved that. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 14:21

And so, like But again, I think that's that's kind of what's cool about the Gotham Awards, that we'll also have a jury that selects the winners.

SPEAKER_03: 14:29

But but then I will say that. So, how did that even really help a different man? It didn't. No, I don't, but the hope is that what it did help was you know, entice the industry to help the filmmakers make another project, right? That that's at least that's the hope for me.

SPEAKER_02: 14:47

Um, and so I mean, if you look at the best picture list, it's I mean, like I said, you can't fault them with their nominees, they're they they're wonderful nominees, great nominations. These are people who are cinephiles who know what they're talking about. So Bogonia, East of Wall, Familiar Touch, Hamnet, if I had legs I'd kick you, Lurker, one bad after another, sorry, baby, the testament of Ann Lee, and Train Dreams. Now, what's pretty cool is that I believe the only two movies here that we have not seen are East of Wall and Familiar Touch. Um, we missed East of Wall at Sundance. They did not play at a theater near you or barely played at a theater near you. And uh I've been dying to see Familiar Touch, um, but we haven't gotten to that yet. Every other film we have seen, and many of which we'll be talking about. I love Lurker. Um, uh, we'll get into Testament of Ann Lee. Um, I got a chance to see if I had legs that kick you again. You know, we saw it at Sundance, and I, you know, this rewatch was uh very, very good. It was uh a very you know um resonant filming experience, film experience watching that again. I was a big fan of Begonia. Maybe we'll get into that later. You have some different opinions about begonia. Um, and let's see, for a foreign language film, it was just an accident, no other choice, Novo Vague, Resurrection, and Sound of Falling. Um, together we've seen four of those nominees. We just missed Resurrection at Cannes. Uh, unfortunately, I can't wait to see that. Hopefully, it comes out near here. Uh, for best documentary, 200 2000 meters to Andrifka, Black News, Terms and Conditions, My Undesirable Friends Part One, Last Air in Moscow, The Perfect Neighbor, which we have seen, and put your soul on your hand and walk, which went to Can and we missed it, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_03: 16:34

Right. I mean, I think there was a lot of great films. One film that was not there, which I was pegging to be the favorite, was Marty Supreme. Right. And so a lot of people are sort of saying that it was ineligible because whatever screened at New York twice um was not a finished cut and that there was gonna be changes, and so that for some reason they could not officially consider the film.

SPEAKER_02: 16:59

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03: 17:00

Sounds super sketchy to me. Whatever. I mean, I think I think it it would it's a missed opportunity. I I mean, I think it's I think it's odd to say the least.

SPEAKER_02: 17:12

Um But I do like that again, you know, you'll get uh films that pop here that you know we can expect them to not to possibly not pop anywhere else um in the next few months. Right. So Kelly Reichert got nominated for best director for the mastermind. We saw that at Cannes. Best actor also and best actor. Um Oliver Lax got nominated for Surratt, which was really cool. Um, let's see. Uh I was a big fan of Urchin and uh Harris Dickinson got nominated for best uh breakthrough director. Uh Carson Lund, Efus is one of my favorite films of the year. That got nominated for Best Femin uh Best Uh Breakthrough Director. Um, let's see uh Sound of Falling got a cut of a couple nominations. I was a big fan of I was a big fan of that out of can. Nouveau Vogue was surprising to me when it got on here for foreign film or international film. Right. Um, which, you know, uh Nouveau Vogue, we've talked about how it hasn't really had the sort of impact and surge that you would have hoped, or I'm sure Netflix would have hoped. Um, we'll be talking about No Other Choice soon. I'm dying to watch preparation uh for the next life. I haven't seen that yet. Um, only got that one nomination, which I think No, I got two. No, I got two, yes. But there's a film that I would have thought would have gotten not her best picture. Right. That's what I thought. Right, exactly. Uh Pillion, I loved out of can. And I still am confused. Is that coming out this year? Is that coming out next year? I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00: 18:36

Yeah, I have no idea.

SPEAKER_02: 18:37

Um, well, I know it's coming out wide next year, but is is it gonna have a qualifying run? Um, I really um I'm always interested in the performances that get picked by these uh uh committees. I think this committee that picks the performances picks both the lead, the supporting, and the breakthroughs, which is interesting. And I do think one of their goals is to like spread the love a little bit. Um, and what's really cool is that in the lead performance uh selection, I think we've only missing one film, I believe. And I think it's a film that uh hasn't come out yet. Um My Father's Shadow.

SPEAKER_03: 19:13

My Father's Shadow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 19:14

Um I think it went to Can. I think we missed it though. Right. And in the supporting categories, uh, we haven't seen Jay Kelly yet. Jim Jarmish's film. And Jim Jarmish's film, everything else we've seen. So, you know, it's it's it's a it's an eclectic list, and you know, I can't fault them. You know, I like I said, there are many, many, many interesting nominees here.

SPEAKER_03: 19:34

Um here's where I really like go off the rails, which is all right, so you want to be the in-between thing because you don't know if you want to be a golden globe or if you want to be a spirit award, and so you're kind of stuck between one bat after another. And if I have, like I said, kick you um between Hamnet and Familiar Touch, fine. You know, I think obviously they have to get themselves together, but then you have the special awards, and those are extraordinarily obnoxious. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 20:04

I'll just say before we get into that, the last category I didn't mention was uh the breakthrough performances. And for example, I'm pretty pretty happy that you know Tony Tew got mentioned for Kiss of the Spider-Woman. That was great, uh, which is nice to see at least some love for that movie there. Um preparation of the uh for the next life got another mention there. ASAP Rocky for highest to lowest, that was weird to me.

SPEAKER_03: 20:25

I really liked him in that movie.

SPEAKER_02: 20:26

Really? I thought he was better than if I had legs, I'd kick you.

SPEAKER_03: 20:28

I either way, just give him something. I you know, he's had I think a really strong year. Right. So the the tributes, the tribute awards to me are the most frustrating. Yeah, because what you're essentially saying is the people who sort of own the conversation, whether it's the awards conversation, the pop cultural conversation, the critics conversation, the fans conversation, they are they can sort of exist in both. Now at least they can exist in both. They can be a best picture nominee and they'll also get a special mention. And some of the smaller films don't get any of the special mentions. So I kind of I kind of feel like did you really need to nominate um, for example, um the director tribute award, Noah Bombach for Jay Kelly? Right. Wouldn't it have been more appropriate to give this award to Noah Bombach when he was making those really, really tiny independent films that barely got any attention and not a film brought to you by Netflix? You know, like why couldn't we give him this in his era of um while we're young, Mistress America? Um, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 21:37

But I also feel uh you're you're right, and and that it's odd to be giving that award to Jay Kelly, which didn't do that well at the nominations, it didn't get nominated for screenplay, I believe. And it got Adam Sandler out of me. So like it just seemed like they weren't that crazy about it to begin with, and now it's getting its own tribute award. That's the kind of thing that gives the impression that there's some, you know, you know, uh bribing happening here.

SPEAKER_03: 22:03

Yeah, that's some of the things that Netflix wants an award. We gotta give them one. So Netflix brings you the director tribute award. Um, the ensemble tribute, I love that it's Sinners. I I I do, I think I you can't fault it for that, but so then why wasn't Sinners good enough to nominate for Best Picture? Right, which is kind of weird. It's inconsistent, it's kind of inconsistent. So, like the musical tribute is going to Song Sung Blue from Focus Features, which that to me is crazy. I mean, Kiss of the Spider-Woman is right there. So so I don't understand sort of how you how you made it, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 22:32

It feels to me like that's brought to you by focus features. Yeah, it's like focus features. I want an award here, you know, let's make it happen. Exactly. And then one of the most egregious ones has to be the tribute to After the Hunt, you know, that is absolutely which is absolutely bonk.

SPEAKER_03: 22:46

That's kind of you know, that's borderline offensive. That's borderline offensive. I don't think that you've done anyone a favor. It that that recognition isn't, I think, for the filmmakers, it's not for the culture, it's not for the fans, it's not for the art form. Who does that serve other than Amazon who's gonna have a premiere date on streaming of all things?

SPEAKER_02: 23:09

Um no, but it's it's it's it's crazy. Like if Amazon had one of the best, like they did last year, um Nickel Boys. Okay, that makes sense. It's just one of the best films of the year, period. This is one of the most, you know, uh uh mixed uh films of the year. It has a 35% uh you know critic rating and people rating around tomatoes, it's in the 50s and Metacritic. And I would like to know which of the critics.

SPEAKER_03: 23:36

So which of the critics or the press members who are sort of repping the other nominees in the other categories have sort of supported the mention of After the Hunt for the for the visionary tribute? I would like I would like to know that because I mean something makes makes me feel that we want the press and the members of the critics, which is great, to sort of nominate these uh these quality film titles and not you know be limited by budget in these other categories, but then we're gonna give a special award and we're not gonna get any input whatsoever as to who should actually receive it. Right. We're instead we're just gonna say, well, who are our corporate sponsors?

SPEAKER_02: 24:11

Right. So it's like Amazon calling and saying, okay, so listen, I saw the nominees, uh, I didn't see After the Hunt anywhere. So how are we gonna work? How we're gonna how we're gonna fix this.

SPEAKER_03: 24:20

Yeah, and I feel like it's it's very unfortunate because there's just so much talent in After the Hunt, and Luca Guadagnino is an immense talent, an incredible filmmaker. And I actually think he got a tribute, I think, last year for Championship, because he had such great work. Well, if they didn't give him a tribute last year, that made absolutely no sense, right? Um, but it could it kind of goes back a little bit also to me with the whole After the Hunt is the opening night film of New York. There's something off about that, right? That right now, at least if you're a Cinephile, if you're a fan of the New York Film Festival, if you're a fan of the art form, you're sort of thinking, is Amazon sort of like twisting the arm of these organizations in order to get like those really prestigious spots? Um, that means something. And so, like, why would open the night why would opening night ever be um after the hunt when you have resurrection right there? You know what I mean? Right. Um, or another you could make it Magellan, you know what I mean? Um, so I do think that there's something really weird about it, and and that selection of special awards is is extremely frustrating. I love Tessa Thompson. Tessa Thompson is one of my favorite actresses. We saw Heda, we have so many thoughts on it. I loved to see her nominate for best actress. I don't think she needs the best actress mention and the spotlight tribute. You know, you know, I I would rather, you know, her get the spotlight tribute and give one hell of a speech and then you know have an extra spot open and lead. I'm not sure that this is I'm not sure that this is the award ceremony where you need to have anyone doubling up on prizes. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02: 25:53

Yeah, yeah, I agree 100%. So it's some it's it's a mixed bag. You know, I do ultimately like the quality that I see with the nominees, but again, I like we've we've been mentioning, I I I mourn a little bit for like what we're losing, what we've lost, and then this sort of infiltration of you know, quote unquote, you know, other entities sort of having their their hands on this uh award ceremony is also quite frustrating, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 26:23

The special interests yeah, but anyway, uh so I think the other thing to talk about in terms of current events, um I think we should talk about Frankenstein. We talked a lot about what we thought was gonna happen before it came out, it has officially come out now.

SPEAKER_02: 26:38

Right. We you and I were mentioning that Frankenstein was looking like a just to remind you guys um in one of our last podcast episodes that Frankenstein was looking like a sleeper contender um because it was primed to do well in costume design in tech categories like costume design, like original score. And if you look at Gamelo de Toro's history, when Gail de Toro hits in those categories, it's because he has a best picture nominee in place.

SPEAKER_01: 27:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 27:06

And so um, lo and behold, you know, we said that maybe a month ago or so, and then not everyone's got Frankenstein in their top 10. Um having seen all of Netflix's uh contenders minus Jay Kelly, I feel very comfortable saying that Frankenstein is definitely um Amazon, I mean, uh Netflix's big horse. Um, will that result in it being a you know best picture nominee? Time will tell. But I will say, you know, as we've been saying, you know, it's it's certainly primed to be that because it's primed to do really well in the tech categories.

SPEAKER_03: 27:43

So I mean, so after seeing the film for yourself, what are you sort of pegging the film for right now in terms of nominations?

SPEAKER_02: 27:51

Well, I think that and and the other the other big thing that happened was when it uh run it up as a as a as a festival favorite at Toronto, obviously.

SPEAKER_03: 28:01

And people are loving it by the way. It did well on Netflix, right? You've spoken to a number of people who really enjoy the film.

SPEAKER_02: 28:08

And it's also really critically acclaimed. It's more critically acclaimed than um uh his last best picture nominee, Nai Marley. Um, and I think it might even be more critically acclaimed than Pinocchio, I'm not sure. Um, and so you know, it has it just has everything uh going for it to get certainly a costume design, a production design, um, a original uh score, um and a cinematography nomination that's four. And I think that the the iconic um uh uh source material that it's based on, you know, it lends itself to very likely getting a screenplay nomination, which is you know, unusual because you know, I would say that one of the criticisms I have about the film have more to do with its script.

SPEAKER_03: 28:59

And I think a lot of people have mentioned that also.

SPEAKER_02: 29:02

Right. But again, maybe just you know, just the sheer uh magnitude of you know the standing of that Mary Shelley uh novel um is going to help it get nominated. There's also a stat that you know if you placed in the Toronto uh People's Choice at any placement, more often than not, yeah, yeah, you get not you get a screenplay nomination at least.

SPEAKER_03: 29:24

Yeah, so I mean that that bodes really well. I mean, makeup, I guess.

SPEAKER_02: 29:27

Makeup, of course. Makeup is a huge contender to win. Right. Um, and so I think that what is that like six? That's six so far. Um and then if you add if you had best picture, that's seven.

SPEAKER_03: 29:40

Well, that's uh that's seven. What do you think about Jacob Alordi?

SPEAKER_02: 29:45

After seeing it, I feel pretty confident that he won't get nominated. Um, I think he does a good job. I personally am more fond of his performance in Priscilla. Um, I think he's great in that.

SPEAKER_03: 29:58

But he's had a great few projects. I mean he's Sophia Coppola. Yeah. Um uh Emerald for now. Right. Right. Uh I think he worked with uh Grizel on I think uh uh a miniseries. Um so now Guillermo del Toro. So like he's building up a pretty good filmography.

SPEAKER_02: 30:15

He is, and I think that this will certainly set him up for the next one to get nominated. I still think he stands to do well at the Golden Globes and the SAG Awards. Um, so I see him, you know, doing well in the precursors and doing well with critics groups, but I don't think he makes it in the end. Um, I just think that um I didn't see I'm just I'm not sure that I felt it was a performance that was going to speak too loudly to the acting branch.

SPEAKER_03: 30:43

Very interesting. I mean, the the last thing I'll say to that is one thing that I don't think a lot of people mention or talk about, which I'll go ahead and sort of shout out, is the sound work is pretty top-notch in it. And so this is a very competitive year for sound design, but I would not be surprised if it is as beloved as you're saying and can get seven to eight nominations if sound is somewhere in there as well.

SPEAKER_02: 31:08

What did you think about Jacob Alorty?

SPEAKER_03: 31:11

Um, my gut says right now that he probably will make it in um because I do think that he's got the globe and the sag. There's only one thing that I think I've told you I don't like, which is I do not like a category that has Jacob Alordi and Paul Muskell. Um, and so that's the only thing that's chipping me up. The other thing is that I think Netflix is gonna get one of their guys in, and we haven't seen Jake Kelly yet. Right. People are pegging Adam. I just don't know if Adam can make it in by himself.

SPEAKER_02: 31:42

Right. And I I haven't seen the film yet. I don't think he will be making it in by himself, even if I think I'm I'm I'm preparing for a a poor showing overall for Jay Kelly, but I just think that acting brand the acting branch is gonna be a little bit more receptive to Jay Kelly and what it's about, and wanting to nominate a performance from that movie than necessarily the fantasy of Frankenstein.

SPEAKER_03: 32:07

Could be, could be. I mean, we'll see what happens. I also I also think sometimes that voters base their nominations on what the next project is, and so Wuthering Heights is right there. Um, I think there's like an interesting overlap because Wuthering Heights is coming out in February, Jesse Buckley will end up being Brida Frankenstein around the same month, I think, or something like that. And so there's some interesting, you know, overlap going on there. Um, but I think he has a good chance, but we'll see what happens.

SPEAKER_02: 32:36

And another film that we saw that you know most of you have already gotten the chance to see possibly is Bogonia. Yes, Bogonia. And we saw it a few weeks ago, two or like three weeks ago, yeah. Um, at a special screening, and I really loved it. I really uh thought that the film really touched a nerve, um, especially with you know contemporary events and sort of contemporary culture. Um, and I thought it was very riveting and it was sweaty and it was dark and it was disturbing, and um, I quite liked it a lot. Um I will say that the third act for me is where things get a little bit bumpier. I think with a better third act, the film would have been Aces. Um with the third act, it has my initial impression coming out of the film was that it was going to be uh very difficult for that movie to get many Oscar nominations. Uh coming out of the film, I felt pretty confident that Emma Stone was not going to be nominated for Best Actress. It doesn't help that she just so recently won her second Oscar and it was for a Yorgos collaboration. So I think they're ready to give Yorgos a break. Yorgos hasn't done well in contemporary films, he does well more in period films, or they like their yogos in that, in that, in that manner. Um, and I think that third act stands to I think the I think that if you don't get on the wavelength of the film, you're not gonna like the film. You know, um, it certainly has its own wavelength, and I think it's not as accessible as something like Poor Things, which in and of itself is not fully accessible, you know, to everyone either or the favorite. But, you know, these uh these contemporary Yorko's pieces are more sinister, darker. Um, and so I think there's a strong chance that voters are gonna see the film and kind of be turned off by it. But I think that a lot of them might be especially turned off by the ending of it or the or the the last the third act of it. Um that being said, I think Jesse Plemens gives one of my favorite performances of the year. I think he was flat out amazing. I think he was fucking terrific. Um, I would love to see him get nominated for best actor, but I really don't think that's gonna happen. I've never been honored for a sag, I will say that individually. Right. I don't think this is the kind of, especially now that the sag is not, you know, the sag we remember. Now it's sort of this uh combination between, you know, the sag and and other entities. Um, I don't see that being a popular choice for sag. Um and so I thought honestly the best chance the film has is a possible nomination in screenplay. And even that I I feel pretty confident, or maybe I shouldn't say confident, but I right now my gut is telling me that it also doesn't make it to screenplay, it certainly doesn't make it to picture, and that really the only thing that maybe I could be wrong about is that Emma Stone in the very lackluster best actress category where there's like only eight contenders or seven contenders, maybe she could sneak in because they prefer to give Emma Stone a uh fifth, you know, acting nomination, which again it sounds wild to me. Um, so soon after winning her second Oscar, maybe they they'd rather nominate her and you know, what is clear, what is clearly a big commitment to her role um than certain other actors contenders that might be in her per, you know, in her surrounding. So possibly, but right now I see it as a film that gets blanked.

SPEAKER_03: 36:16

Um, well and that's coming from someone who really really liked it. I thought I had very strong performances. I think the strongest pushes are gonna be for Emma Stone, who should repeat where she's really well liked, the Globes and the SAG. I think Jesse Plemens, who was nominated for Kinds of Kindness, he should get the Globe nomination. And I would not be surprised if he got the sag nomination. I think he gave a brilliant performance, but he's a brilliant actor. Um I did not like the film. I'm not a fan of the film. I'm not a fan of the third act, but I'm not huge on the first or the second act either. Um, in my opinion, the best performance actually belonged to um the young man um who I believe is is on his first film. Um I think I believe his name is uh Aiden Delbus, um, who's I think competing and supporting. Um he was actually my favorite performance. Um I was not surprised when it, you know, maybe had a little bit more of a polarized reaction from critics when it opened up here. At the same time, I think it's recovered pretty well.

SPEAKER_02: 37:17

I think well, I will say it started out in Metacritic with like a 78. Right. And then went all the way down to a 70. Now it's like 68.

SPEAKER_03: 37:24

I remember it being 68 at some point.

SPEAKER_02: 37:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now it's suddenly like at a 72, 73.

SPEAKER_03: 37:30

Yeah, that I think it recovered a little bit, and I think it did make some money at the box office. And I know that it didn't get a D plus like other films did, which we'll talk about later. Yeah, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_02: 37:40

But I also say, but also say it's still in the camp of films that certainly underperformed for how much they were made. Right. So that film has, I think, a I read a budget of 55 million. Whoa. Right, right. And I mean, as much as I like the film, you know, 55 million sounds like a lot for that movie. It's not gonna make it, it's not gonna make 55 million back. Right, you know, so so even even if you know it didn't do, you know, you know, uh chump change, right? You know, it's still it's still far off from what it would what it was made for.

SPEAKER_03: 38:14

Well, so to me, I think it's you know, second tier Yorgos, who said he's gonna go on a break now, um, which I think I he works really he works very consistently, so I kind of understand it, but I didn't like the script. I don't like the I didn't like the script from Will Tracy.

SPEAKER_02: 38:32

Um Yeah, and you know, I'm sorry to inter interrupt you, but yeah, I mean, like I said, I quite like the film, but Will Tracy is kind of more missed for me than hit. I didn't love his screenplay for the menu either, but I do think that his collaboration here with Yorgos was much more uh felt much more grounded and evocative than the menu did, which I was not a fan of at all.

SPEAKER_03: 38:57

Um so I kind of I I didn't like the script too much, which made sense with the menu, which I didn't like too much either. I still think it has a shot at screenplay though, because I do think that no matter what the piece is timely and no matter what my personal feelings are on the movie, I also think that it's in this strong position where I feel like it can maybe get some international support um to get more nominations than I would have pegged it for. I would have I came out of the movie thinking that it's not gonna be nominated for anything. Very difficult. Um, even if you know Best Actress is sort of slim for competition. But the more I think about it and the more I see that it's kind of recovered, for example, I know it did pretty well, I think, in this short list for the European Film Awards. And so I would not be surprised if some international appeal for the film is gonna help the movie resonate in a in a bigger way at the Oscars. And so I think you think you said it, you shouldn't sleep on the acting categories, the script category. I tell you what, after I saw it, and this is why you know they don't pay me to do these things, but I thought Emma Stone is a supporting performance. I did not think it was a lead performance, not at all. Um, and I think she would be a surefire nominee for supporting actress had she been campaigned appropriately. Um, so I for example, that's that's my point of view, um, that if the campaign knew what they were doing, they would shift her down to supporting actress.

SPEAKER_02: 40:19

Right. But I I guess I disagree with that, but I want to just mention that we have two differing opinions about the film, and I think that goes to what I was saying when I said, you know, this film stands to be, you know, have a polarized reaction from what I believe will be polarizing for voters, um, which is going to hurt its case for for the Academy Awards.

SPEAKER_03: 40:44

Right. I mean, we'll see what happens, but I I definitely think that this is the kind of film where I think it'll do well on its way to getting, I don't know how many nominations, but it competing in contemporary categories is gonna be really good at the guilds. I expect Golden Globe, Golden Globe nominations, and I expect SAG nominations. And so this is one that I would not sleep on, despite I guess for me, this is one that can go zero and one that can go one and one that can go as high as even five.

SPEAKER_02: 41:14

I disagree, and like I said, and we're gonna have a similar opinion about another film we're gonna talk about soon. Um, I think that this is a one nomination or a zero. Um, and right now my gut says zero. And again, this is someone that liked it quite a bit. Um I love the ending of that movie. Um, it's one of my favorite endings of the year so far. You know, it's very, you know, uh it's it's it's it's very haunting. Um and uh yeah, there are a lot of haunting things about that that film. Um okay, and next let's talk about all right.

SPEAKER_03: 41:49

So let's start digging into the films that I think most people haven't seen. Maybe there's a few here that some of you have caught up with already. Um, but let's start talking about the biggest films that people haven't seen that are being pegged as favorites.

SPEAKER_02: 42:02

Right. The biggest film that we saw um a couple weeks ago was Hamnet from Chloe Zhao. Uh we saw it at a special screening. Um, I will say I adore Chloe Zhao as a filmmaker, as a person. She's so inspiring to me. Um, I think she's a master filmmaker. I think her last film, Nomad Land, was a masterpiece. I will say that I liked Hamnet, but I don't think it's her strongest work. Um, I think that you know the film is emotionally raw. I think that uh the film still has Chloe Zhao's intimate aesthetic, her soulful aesthetic, which really I think brings a lot to the piece. Um, I think there's a lot of elegant uh restraint in the film. I think it has really good performances. I thought Jesse Buckley was fucking fantastic. Um, her best performance yet. Um, a surefile nominee, a surefile winner in my eyes, 100%. Um, and she was a huge highlight for me, as I'm sure she will be for many people. Um, I thought The Little Kid was very good and very, very touching. I think Paul Maskell does a good job. Um, but after seeing the film, and I'm and we'll get into into your impression of it, after seeing the film, I will say to you all right now that I feel very confident that it will not beat one battle after another for best picture. If this is one battle's biggest compet competition, and I think it will be, I feel very, very confident that one battle will win that battle. And after seeing the film, the first thing I thought of was that's it, one battle is the best picture winner of the year. And one battle, I believe, will win best picture and best director and best screenplay. I think Paul Thomas Anderson walks out of this award season getting three Oscars minimum, and there's just this film is gonna have its fans, it's going to be critically acclaimed, but I don't think it will be able to eclipse the strength, the momentum, and the quality of PTA's latest.

SPEAKER_03: 44:11

I mean, I agree with a lot of what you said. I think Chloe Zhao is a brilliant filmmaker. Um, this film is not bad, but I'm not very passionate about it. And I don't know how many people will be passionate about it.

SPEAKER_02: 44:24

Oh, I think so. I think people will be passionate about it for sure. I mean, I'm not saying voters, but the general public, I do think, will will like it quite a bit.

SPEAKER_03: 44:31

I think that's important because the only way that I think it can beat one battle after another is if it makes 40 to 50 million bucks at the box office. Other than that, I think it doesn't really it won't be able to be competitive against it. Um there's a I think this is a film that at least to me felt like it was largely um overstated in terms of its impact. Um I think Dusty Buckley's phenomenal in it. I think Paul Meskell did not necessarily give a very specific William Shakespeare or a specific take on it. I thought I thought it was too broad. Um, and I I wonder I do wonder if that's gonna affect his chances, along with him being already a nominee in an in for the lead actor category previously.

SPEAKER_02: 45:18

Interestingly enough, Shakespeare doesn't do well in these acting categories.

SPEAKER_03: 45:22

He does not, and that's very interesting, and so I would look out for that. We mean Shakespeare the character the character, yeah, as Joseph Fines. Um, and then the other thing is so for example, like I I can't tell you right now that I'm sold on it being a Surefire costume nominee or a Surefire production design nominee. Yeah, I wanted to get into that, and if it does like end up getting nominated there, it's very much because it's a best picture nominee. It's sort of like someone's filling out their ballot. What am I gonna put? Well, I saw Ham in it, it's a best picture movie, I cried, so I'm putting that, as opposed to, for example, you know, Sinners, which is going to be placed extremely high on those ballots because as a production designer, it's some of the work that I remember most.

SPEAKER_02: 46:06

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 46:06

And it just so happens that I'm also placing it on best picture. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02: 46:09

I think that's I I think that's a really good point. Um, that I'll just jump off really quick, is that even though I'm I'm I'm positive as me as everyone is that Ilganai for Best Picture, and again, I feel pretty confident that it will not win. When you start to, after you've seen the film, kind of decipher what the nominations are going to be, it's a little bit, I think, on the lower end for me than what I think people are thinking or saying. You know, so it's certainly a film that will compete for best picture and it will get nominated, I believe, for adapted screenplay. I do think Paul Mesco will get nominated for sure. I think Jesse Buckley is absolutely winning. And I think the film will get nominated for this is where it gets tricky. I think the film will get nominated for cinematography, but it's not one of the top in the category. Whereas before I had seen the movie, I thought Lucas Zhaw was going to be at the very top. I think he gets this nomination because he hasn't got it in yet and because it's a best picture nominee.

SPEAKER_03: 47:04

Um, I don't think he's even got it for color yet, to be honest. And like he he he should have gotten the color for zone of interest, but they snubbed him.

SPEAKER_02: 47:11

Right. Um, actually, my apologies. Of course, he's been nominated for Ida and for Cold War, but I think he has the esteem to get into the category, but I don't think he'll win the category. I think he's a fourth or fifther in that list. I agree. I don't know that I see the film as a slam dunk at all for costume or for production design.

SPEAKER_03: 47:31

You know what's interesting when you said that about cinematography is that I was thinking in my mind, um, yeah, you he's it's like sort of a fourth or fifth effort, what you see on the screen.

SPEAKER_02: 47:41

Well, I mean, it looks beautiful to me, certainly, but it's it doesn't compete with the other things that he's made.

SPEAKER_03: 47:46

And I would argue that between the two films that I remember seeing of his in color, I'm more impressed with the zone of interest. Right, right. Um, but this was very good too. But I'm not I'm not knocking it at all. But what I am saying is if he has an edge, again, the same way for production in the costume sign, if they have an edge in that category, it's because people liked it in Best Picture. And so the edge of Lucas Zhao in this category is that he's a veteran and he's been nominated twice already, versus the DP for Sinners, the DP for one battle, these they have not been nominated yet. Right, right. Um, and so again, just that idea that Lucas Zhao will get in, the work is good, the work is solid, but he's going to get in very much because he just so happens to be Lucas Zhao, who has a tremendous reputation already, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 48:33

Right. Exactly. And so again, I'm not sure that I see costume and production design being a slam dunk at all. Not that they're poorly done, they're done well, but they're not typically what they go for, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 48:45

They're not a standout, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 48:46

Exactly. Um, the costume design doesn't change very much. Um, and the production design is very subtle and a lot of open spaces. Um, so it's not typically what they go for. I do think that they'll finally welcome uh Max Richter into the original score category. I as as you know, I'm a huge Max Richter fan. I adore his music. I listen to it nonstop all the time. It really uh inspires me and influences me creatively. Um, so I think that he'll finally get a nomination, but I also think that his very renowned piece features in the film, features very heavily in the film and uh in in a pivotal moment in the film. I do wonder if that's going to hurt it getting nominated. Um, I think someone after the film confirmed that that shouldn't be a reason that shouldn't be something that disqualifies.

SPEAKER_03: 49:39

It won't be a factor, which is a shame because it's not necessarily used, right? Any less, you know, um charged or any less, you know, prominently than it was in a rival. And they sort of canceled that nomination. So it is, I agree with you. It's kind of weird that that that it it's it's not disqualified and they can compete still.

SPEAKER_02: 49:59

And then this is be the biggest take that that I think you and I will say that I think might surprise quite a few people. But after seeing the film, I think you and I feel pretty confident that Chloe Zhao will be snobbed for best director. Um, which I know sounds crazy saying that, and maybe we're gonna eat our words, but if we don't, you heard it here first. And that's because, as you all probably know, the director's branch is very uh picky, very selective, and they're also very selective about who they let in and how soon after their last nomination. That's true for a lot of categories, but that's especially true for Best Director. Uh Chloe Zhao has only made one film in between Nomad Land and Um uh Hamnet, and that was Eternals, which wasn't received well, even though I quite like it. Um, and so I just don't think A that there's enough work in between that uh directors gonna say, well, well, let's nominate her again so soon. Unfortunately, some of the gender politics come in here because you know they're not great at nominating female filmmakers anyway. They're also on a trend of trying to welcome as many new filmmakers as they possibly can. And in this case, they already have a surefire veteran getting in who's yet to win an Oscar. Um, Paul Thomas Anderson, uh, the great the great PTA, everyone else kind of is new. Joaquim Trier, Jafar Panahi, Ryan Kugler. So it's sort of like finally welcoming them into the club. I just don't think that the piece is strong enough to convince them or persuade them to give her a nomination so soon after Nomad Land. And again, it's it's a nomination that she ended up winning. It's a category she won, best director. Um, so I think all those things are going to come into play and she will miss out in the best director category for a new director that hasn't been recognized by the branch yet, that they're eager to recognize for uh whatever reason. And that move that that contender is most likely going to be Josh Safty. And uh maybe we'll get into this right now. In that number one, if Timothy Chalamet stands to win the best director award, I mean, the best actor award, um it's very rare to have a best actor winner in the modern age that did not have a best director nomination for a film that didn't that didn't have a best director nomination. That's number one. And number two, as we looked at the research here, um A24 does really well in this best director category. So when they have a horse for best director and it's a big horse, and you know, if Timothy Chalamet is going to win best actor, then that is a big horse. Right for A24, they shouldn't miss this category. They shouldn't miss Best Director.

SPEAKER_03: 52:47

This goes all the way back to Lenny Abrahamson, who got in for a room without hardly any precursors or anyone thinking that he would. So I think that's a a significant factor. And I think Chloe Zhao is in that position where she could easily be leapfrogged. I don't think it's a sure thing, but after seeing the film, certainly that's something that I think about. I think it's interesting that you enjoyed the film, and I feel that the film is a less than the sum of its parts, and we're sort of thinking the same way here in terms of you know, just the standing that people are giving it right now, more established pundits and critics, I think is is overblown. Um, you know, for example, I was always pegging Alfonso Goncalves, the fantastic film editor, getting in for this film. He's never been nominated, he's extraordinary, and he's you know, you you're gonna recognize him from his work on Drew Detective Carol. But I didn't think that the editing in this film was gonna resonate very much with voters. I don't I don't see it getting an editing nomination.

SPEAKER_02: 53:47

I I differ. I do see it getting an editing nomination because I do think it's gonna end up being one battle's biggest competitor at the end of the day. And so I don't see a, you know, uh a real horse race or you know, a perceived horse race unless it gets an editing nomination. Um, so just based on its number two status, it's gonna get a best editing nomination, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_03: 54:09

But that's my point, is that it feels like a bunch of the nomination that it's gonna get is due to its being the number two movie because it won the TIFF award, as opposed to, you know, had one battle after another not ever been the number one movie. There's enough editing there for an editor to be stro, you know, for it to be striking work for an editor. There's enough cinematography work for it to strike, you know, the cinematographer's branch. The same thing with the sound work and the score work. And this is not that. This is a little bit more like I'm supposed to put this movie in best picture, and maybe some people, you know, really liked it enough to be number one or number two, but then everything, you know, follows down from that. It's sort of like um, but you know, sort of like a triangle. You get the biggest nomination and the other ones follow as opposed to what I think one battle is, which is the reverse triangle, right? Which is you get a bunch of the little nominations first, and then before you realize it, you realize it's been nominated for so many awards that it's a best picture nominee, sort of like Frankenstein that we were sort of saying, where Frankenstein, if it's a production design nominee and a costume design nominee, and a cinematography nominee and a score nominee and a screenplay nominee, then it's kind of a best picture nominee. You know, I think the hamnet kind of works the opposite way, and so beyond the editing thing, I'll say something controversial. I don't really expect Paul Meskell to be nominated for this. Um, I think he's had a tremendous year, but I think that this is the nomination he gets for being snubbed for After Sun, but he got in for After Sun. And so I don't see Paul Meskell at his young age at this stage in his career. He's about to just blow up into bigger projects. He's just coming off Gladiator, he's gonna be in the Beatles, I think. And so I don't think that Paul Mesko gets his second nomination three years after After Sun in support in a supporting category for this take on William Shakespeare.

SPEAKER_02: 55:58

I think we've talked about this. We differ. I think Paul Mesko will definitely get nominated. I think it's an actor again that they uh have their eye on, that they're eager to nominate several times in the future. Um, I think it helps that it's a category shift. We've talked about that several times on our podcast, how how important it is to be to have a category shift when you're gonna, you know, have a repeat nomination, especially so soon. Um, and I think it really helps that he's playing William Shakespeare. So we talked about this as well that these acting categories should have a real life figure representation in the nominees. And so you have one that we are pegging on for best actress, you gotta you have one that we're pegging for best actor, and he's really the best shot for best supporting actor uh for William Shakespeare. Um, and so yeah, I don't see him missing at all, but I definitely do not see him winning. Um, I think before I thought that might be a horse race between Staten Skarsgard um and Paul Mesko. Now I firmly think this is Staten Skarsgard's to win full stop all the way. Um, so yeah, we differ there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 57:04

I mean, we'll we'll see what happens, but I I think that this is gonna survive on, you know, the loyalties of the British contingent and you know, the people who do like it and respond to it very well. Um, but on in in my eyes, I think this is a movie that maybe gets seven, and I can see it going lower.

SPEAKER_02: 57:24

I think that it's a sevener also. I think it gets seven as well. I think it's picture, two acting, screenplay, that's four, right, score, that's five, two more.

SPEAKER_03: 57:33

Yeah. And I mean, it could get nominated for something like production design or costume design, but it would only be nominated because they saw it because it's the best picture movie, and because they couldn't think of someone else to to recognize. Right. Um, and so I think that's where we're at with Hamnet. I will say this everything changes if it makes 40 to 50 million at the box office. If it can make the uh same amount of money that Conclave made, everything changes. Because there is this other narrative, you know, beyond the Paul Thomas Anderson finally winning one, which is focus features, finally winning best picture. Right. And in my opinion, this film just falls below the Brobeck Mountains and the Tars in terms of how excellent the films are. It's a little bit more like Belfast, right? And can it sort of be the sentimental counterpart to win Best Picture? Yeah, my gut says no.

SPEAKER_02: 58:26

I would definitely not put it on par with Belfast. It's better. No, it's certainly better. I wouldn't, I did not like Belfast. Right. Um, for me, it's a very good focus features film, it's a good Chloe Zhao film, it's just not the best film of the year.

SPEAKER_03: 58:40

Yeah, it's I don't think it's the one that focused features should be putting on their banner. I think there's Broadback Mountain, there's Tar, there's Lost of Translation. Hamnet is a solid film. Right. And I think that's that's what period for me. Okay. Um well, I think the next movie to talk about is also one um that we were very fortunate to see uh, which is the testament of Ann Lee. Right. Um hasn't been screened very widely. It just really got a teaser the other day. Yeah, you know, I think their promotion has been very, very quiet. I'm actually pretty happy that we got to see it before the teaser.

unknown: 59:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 59:18

You know, I love I love experiencing a film, you know, before you see any footage of it whatsoever.

SPEAKER_03: 59:23

Yeah, you know what? What's funny is that speaking of Hamnet, I haven't even seen the new trailer for Hamnet because people said to avoid it if you hadn't seen it yet. Yeah, I did. Um, should people avoid the teaser for Ann Lee if they haven't?

SPEAKER_02: 59:34

No, no, right? No, but I do think it gives you uh I think it was a good teaser, and I think it gives you a nice, you know, very uh quick impression of what you're gonna get into.

SPEAKER_03: 59:45

Okay. Okay, so we screened An Lee. Um it's a lot of movie. It's there's a bunch of movie cramped into that film. I will say what'd you think?

SPEAKER_02: 59:57

I'll say that to me, I it's one of my favorite films of the year. I think it was I was uh flabbergasted. I was astounded by the boldness and the vision. It was a staggering uh it was a staggering vision. Um it was at times uh radiant it was ravishing um it was surprising um you really see the soul of a filmmaker on it you know the creativity their brilliance uh their boldness um and it was just a a a really uh you know just an incredible experience it was searing uh there's a there's a ferocious energy to it it's also strange it's at times kind of surreal um it's thrilling you know it's what you said it's it's it's jam-packed and it's one of those experiences where I feel like you really get your money's worth because there's just so much there to unpack and to experience um I'll say as someone that clearly loved it you know um well before I get into that what did you think I think it's I love it I mean I think we're like yin yin and yin right now um I really admired the movie um I will I prefer the movie to Hamnet I think Anne Lee is better um it's a little overwhelming I think I love that about it I yeah and I I I think that's part of the point and I can appreciate that um I didn't like the script for the first half and I liked the script for the second half um I think it could have I just think it could have been written better um it could have been a more complete script a more complete screenplay um but I do think it ends you know incredibly powerful and I think that second half of the movie I'm was really taken with it I um I I I agree with you I think the ending is incredible I'll say that I think Amanda Seyfried is incredible in this movie I think it's one of her finest performances and I think you and I felt very similar that when we were done here after this watching this film I don't see we didn't see how Amanda Seyfried doesn't get a best actress nomination out of this um I will say that even though it's the kind of performance that kind of like like and we'll reference this I think as we discuss it kind of like Spencer she can miss the sag. She may miss the sag right 100% no she just expect her to miss the sag. Yeah she just probably will not miss the Oscar because just you know if you tune into the film you're just going to admire so much of what's there the craft the quality um even it's one of those performances where I feel like even if you dislike the film you're just going to admire the performance at the center.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:47

But I'll also say oh go ahead well no what I was going to say was we had sort of discussed I had alluded I had alluded to this after we had seen it um which is one thing that I really liked about the film is that it's kind of an unorthodox musical in the sense that it's not wicked at all or Amelia Perez or Lemise Rob or Chicago. To me something that I really loved about the piece is that like it reminds me of a lot of the musicals that were going on in the 70s which were like very counterculture and it's almost like how can you make this a musical but then you have hair right and um uh Phinean's Rainbow is also great and even something like 1776 um which is another musical that I kind of like but like this sort of like melding between politics and a lens on society um and these bigger overarching themes sort of infusing that with music that's what it sort of reminded me of and I I kind of loved that about it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:49

I'll also say that for me the biggest takeaway for me was just how compassionate the film is and how uh the the the the the magnitude of compassion that it has for its subject and the movement that it's chronicling to me was really hard to describe but the best word I can use is inspiring. It was very inspiring to me. Um and uh and it really was very beautiful to behold you know that that sort of sacred uh compassion and empathy that she had for her subject um Mona. Yeah Mona Fasfold and um what you know the the compassion that she has towards Anne Lee and towards this movement you know it was just really beautiful to see and it really touched me really it really touched me.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:39

I mean I I I will say this now that we've said that is the movie ended and there was no standing ovation no you know applause ringing through the theater everyone was I think in thought I will say I 100% I agree with you I think that the this is going to be without a doubt a polarizing film.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:02

There will be people who see it and feel like I do and uh and like you do and there'll be other people who see it and dislike it very much. I do not see how this film will get a huge theatrical audience. I was thinking about this before we were paring you know if a film like Kiss of the Spider Woman did so poorly um and I think that film has a lot of accessibility to it I don't see how this film does you know 10 times better than Kiss of the Spider Woman the only difference is that you know this is a$10 million this is a 10 million budget and Kiss of the Spider Woman is a 30 million budget also the history maybe like maybe some history people are really going to be taken with ooh it's a it's a shaker it's a musical possibly I certainly feel that we saw it with a lot of people and it felt like the vast majority of people there were as you sat in thought possibly a bit overwhelmed you know kind of like okay all right what did I just experience you know some people have mentioned perplexed perplexed some people have mentioned walkouts there was a couple walkouts and a couple it wasn't it wasn't anything I think super significant but I think I feel like you could feel the energy in the room was like you know one of you know uh being perplexed yeah uh in a way it's a demanding film I will say 100% demanding like it has a very particular wavelength and if you get on it you're gonna be in for one hell of a ride.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:21

Right. Um but if you're like if you're fighting it every minute then it's just gonna be a very frustrating experience.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:28

Yeah and and I so I understand the people who saw it at Venice and had and said that this is this year's Amelia Perez you know I completely disagree in the sense that this is a much better film than Amelia Perez's but I will agree in the sense that it will polarize people and I don't see this film amassing this fan base you know outside of critical acclaim and critics and cinephiles you know very strict cinephiles who have a you know wide you know palette so to speak um I think general people who check it out are not going to like it right um and I will say that as great as Amanda Seyfried is in it I think she greatly benefits from being again one of the very few contenders in her category to be a real life person. And like I said you always have to uh presume that the Oscars are going to include a real life figure the only times they don't is when it's literally impossible to do so um and uh after a Venice bow and having the critical claim that this film will certainly have it will make several top 10 lists it's making mine um even with all of that I do think that Amanda Safe Reed benefits from the lack of real characters real people real figures real historical figures in her category and if there had if there were better options more accessible options she would miss out as great as the performance is um I I think what's really helping her right now is that and that leads me into the the other thing I want to say which is that as someone who loved the movie I really don't see this film getting nominated for many awards. In fact I see it getting nominated for only an actress award um despite you know all the great things that are on there um I see it being a one nomination for Amanda Sayfried and um I don't know I you know you you have a you have a different this is why I love it I love the yin yang of it um because it's not gonna make my top films of the year.

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:34

I I I don't think the comparisons to Amelia Perez are unjust in the sense that again I'm not knocking either films in the sense that they're both very ambitious films that are extremely successful in some ways and extremely messy in other ways. So I I did enjoy the film. I enjoyed Amelia Perez as well um I understand the shortcomings of it or I I feel like I see some shortcomings in in in each um but what's interesting here is that we're on like on total opposite you know ends of the spectrum because after seeing the film I thought yes Amanda Seyfried is undeniable it helps that she's a previous nominee it helps that she's a real person but there's again there's just too much movie in front of a voter's eyes where I can't really see it missing in a bunch of other categories. So for example in my opinion yes Amanda Seyfried will be nominated despite possibly missing a sag. But I don't see how the film isn't a factor in costume design or production design cinematography score song. So to me this is more of a six nomination movie and I really do think that if they know what they're doing and I have every reason to doubt that they do um this is the kind of movie that Fox Searchlight back when it was Fox Searchlight would probably be able to get in to a 10 best picture. You know if there's if there has to be 10 they would probably be able to get this in Fox Searchlight is now searchlight so I don't know how capable or not they are of doing that but there's again just so much movie here. And I think it's it's also a timely piece and I think there's a a a it's a a a conversation piece and so if they really knew what they were doing or if this wasn't for example Searchlight and instead A24 bought this movie like they bought the Brutalist last year I think this is a seven to eight nomination movie. I'm not saying that at all but I am saying that the movie is there. You just have to campaign it right. I don't think that they will but if they do I think it's a six seven eight nomination movie.

SPEAKER_02: 1:11:00

Again we talked about this that to me sounds crazy based on what I saw and I think that things like it doing poorly at the box office which I think will happen um because it's just not the kind of film that I think is accessible enough to enough uh audience uh general audiences um will have a factor will play a factor I think we saw a little bit of that in our screening you know um you know the sort of tepid response afterwards and I think the crowd that we saw with felt like they were excited to to see what it was all about this Venice you know stunner right um there was a very tepid reaction and I think we saw glimpses of that at at the actual Venice film festival ceremony where it failed to win a single thing. And after seeing the movie again there's a lot of movie here so I have a hard time thinking that it couldn't place anywhere and that one award it was very easy for it to win was a best actress award. No I can't win that I mean I think it's just she's too American I don't know I Alexander Payne is a jury head so yes I think that she could have won best actress I think she was the favorite to win best actress I think the fact that the film walked out empty handed I think just lends further fodder to this idea that yeah this is going to be a hard movie for a lot of people to love. Admire yes love that's a different story and I also think it doesn't help that you know the filmmakers the collaborators on the piece have yet to be nominated you know there's not a lot of known you know uh filmmakers that have have have been nominated or have been very close to getting nominated in for example categories like costume design and production design and dot hurts I think a film for example that was able to do something like that was Poor Things where it got you know a costume designer that hadn't been there before and production designer all in one go you know that was a best picture nominee um and and I'm pegging this to not be able to be a best picture nominee but that also brings me to this other thing that I was thinking about which is this film reminds me a lot of Jackie in a way which is we're gonna piece on that right uh which is also was also a searchlight pick that they acquired out of Venice even though that actually won something at Venice um yeah and that if you see Jackie and you are able to appreciate the amount of skill and filmmaking the the artistry in that movie I remember seeing that movie and thinking how the hell is this not a a surefile best picture nominee I think that film was is amazing. That film is incredible right and it walked out with three nominations right um uh and and and and search that got snubbed that year completely from a best picture nomination yeah and so um I feel something a similar energy here you know people who saw Jackie we saw it at the New York film festival there were a lot of people who were very iffy about it they weren't they didn't love it you know and that's a film that was also very bold in its approach and you know had a very artistic sort of vision for a biopic um about Jackie Kennedy um people were expecting something else completely so it's you know I this film reminds me a lot of that and I think it stands to repeat the same sort of destiny you know a lot of film championed by critics loved by critics many top 10 lists many accolades but at the end when it comes to the voting body they're just going to admire it more than they love it and the place where it can really make its mark is such a complicated and dearthy category like best actress.

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:28

I think that's a fair comparison. I absolutely believe that's a fair comparison comparing it to Jack E both in the film it is and what kind of potential it has with Oscar voters. I guess I'm just seeing a lack of competition this year that was not around in 2016 when when Jackie missed maybe I'm responding to that um I I agree I I would have seen Jackie and I would have thought it was a you know a six nominee movie seven nominee movie and and it clearly wasn't um even though again it had all the potential to be um so it could very well end up the way that you're saying but just in my gut I I find it difficult to believe that a costume designer or a production designer is going to have to consider Hamnet and the testament of Anne Lee and would ever favor Hamnet. I do find difficulty at the same I mean even the cinematographer who again Lucas has a tremendous repundation and does excellent work here the whole 70 millimeter of it all the whole um excuse me the whole Vista vision of it all for Anne Lee I think makes it extremely competitive. That's what I think but we'll see what we'll see what happens.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:37

I don't know I I I guess yeah we I disagree I feel like this film exists in the in the in the realm of like Brady Corbet's you know Vox Lux and Brady Corbet's you know child of leader um I haven't seen Mona Fazfold's last film um uh the world to come the world to come you know but it's certainly one of those you know pieces that is very uh again just bold experimental in its approach and you know there's a reason why their brutalist got in and those other films by Brady Corbet didn't um so so and I think it doesn't help that she was just there that she got nominated Mona Fast followed for screenplay. So it's sort of like I think there will be a feeling from voters as is often the case after you've just been nominated you know do I really need to nominate them so soon um after just last year.

SPEAKER_03: 1:16:28

And that's that's true for a lot of contenders this year. Yeah. We'll we'll we'll find out how that happens. I'm gonna be very curious to see what the reception is when more more people see it here in in the US um I think the next one to talk about is a little bit of a sleeper um which we both kind of saw and here we're kind of on the same we're in the same wavelength.

SPEAKER_02: 1:16:48

Yeah so we we saw Nuremberg which did pretty well at the box office I have to say doing well doing well I mean really modestly budgeted um got a great opening crowd we we actually saw with two different crowds right and both of our crowds were really into it and very much an adult audience that was excited to watch an adult historical drama on screen and really enjoyed the thought about the subject matter about this subject about this serious subject matter historical subject matter I will say yeah exactly the film in my opinion you know is very flawed it's not a film that I love by any by any stretch of the imagination I think there's a lot of problems um but when it comes to the predicting game it's not really about what movies you love what you don't it's about seeing the bigger picture and the bigger picture here is that this film is doing well and it's doing well in an environment where all the films are falling like flies. Yeah you're talking about like exactly yeah so um it helps that it's modestly budgeted but it's no small feat that it's doing well and that it has good word of mouth and that people are coming out of the film really enjoying it and liking it and being moved by it don't sleep on that that matters um it's uh about a topic that is very Oscar friendly um it stars uh actors that are very uh that the academy knows and respects Oscar winners Oscar winners um uh so in Sony Picture Classics Sony Picture Classics knows how to campaign their shit they know how to get their movie in front of voters' eyes and a lot of the people that we're see that we saw the film with and that that are enjoying the film are kind of you know the voting body of the academy yeah older older um uh very familiar with that historical moment they like a more a more conventional film they don't like an Anne Lee they like a conventional film well told in a very um traditional way that's you know very Hollywood right and so despite mm my several issues with the film again I wasn't a big fan of it um and critically it's very borderline it's like a 61 on Metacritic um in this kind of competition where we're considering films like the Testament of Ann Lee and Bugonia which I think are gonna stand to be very polarizing films like Avatar and Wicked that have already populous films. Yeah populist films that but that have already been there before and we're still unsure how you know how how much voters are eager to welcome them back so soon. Films like uh Weapons which I think is surging but it's also really not their cup of tea. Maybe too edgy. Yeah not really what they typically go for. Surprises that people haven't really picked up on yet like the vo the the voice of Hin Rajab uh which has all the ingredients to get in but will Watermelon Pictures be able to pull that huge feat you know when you look at the field you have to start wondering if a a a well-liked film by Sony Picture Classics about this topic can't muster a nomination in the same way that maybe a movie like uh September 5th was very damn close to doing it. Yeah it ended up only getting an a screenplay nomination but it was close to getting a best picture nomination and I think this film has the benefit that it's being more watched than that film was and it's being more um you know September 5th had some complications with that with uh you know the Israel and Palestine conflict that was yeah at a fever pitch. Right. Um you know this film you know has a lot of timely themes you know uh has some uh exploration of you know authoritarianism uh immigration uh anti-Semitism so there's just a lot there that I think these audience members are responding to right um and you know I just got the feeling from watching it that if certain kinds of voters you put them in front of that movie they're going to respond very positively and they're gonna be eager to put it on their ballots.

SPEAKER_03: 1:20:49

Like like the audiences that we saw with so not only is it tackling that difficult subject matter and not only is it you know a historical piece that is you know more timely than ever the idea of you know people in power being held accountable um right across the world but certainly in the US um audiences are enjoying watching a film that you know tackles serious material and that's something that I think the industry is genuinely going to be excited about. Yeah that's an old small feature because that doesn't happen anymore. And so like we we were talking about it like you know September 5th something that I think didn't help was that as great as a movie as it is it's also a very small intimate movie that I'm not sure how many eyes actually got in front of it. You know there are there are major audiences watching this film right now. I think it's definitely going to get an IFUS Guild nomination in PGA it's definitely I think it will definitely get an eye for a globe drama. Yeah I mean so like I I do think the stars will align for it um and then you know the other thing about it I think is not only is the talent on screen familiar to voters but I also think that this film does a good job of sort of bridging you know American voters and international voters right I mean European voters I think are going to enjoy the film and appreciate sort of the Hollywood retelling of this but it's a subject matter that's important to them too. You know what I mean? The Nuremberg trials. Right. And so I think that's gonna help it has that international appeal even if it's not international co-production what did you feel about the quality of the movie? Are you like me that yeah I definitely feel like it's um an uneven movie and there are things I you know what I think yeah it's very slight biggest I think the biggest criticism I had of the movie and the biggest compliment I had of the movie I told you about after I had seen it which is this movie could have been great. Like the story the actual story and and and was the the his the the history that this is based on could have been an amazing movie. I just don't think they got the right director and I think the script can be sharper. For example you loved Russell Crowe in it I think I would have preferred a German actor I think Russell Crowe was the strongest performance in the piece personally. Right and I I loved Michael Shannon in it right um and and so and I'm not to say that Rami Malik did a bad job but I also feel like his character could have been could have had more depth like especially for where the film ends I just feel like that's my big takeaway from the film is it's not bad. I get why people are liking it. I don't dislike it um there are things to enjoy about it and certainly the history of it right is extremely comp um compelling. Right the historic parallels to the moment we're living in is extremely compelling. That said my only knock is hey you give this movie to Ridley Scott and Ridley Scott could be you know he could finally win best director technically I think I think it's pretty poor in my opinion but again I can't I can't uh uh avoid that it just has a lot of the right ingredients um that's doing well yeah um so don't sleep on it right do I feel positive that it makes that sign for best picture no I don't um I'm not sure you do either but I think people are sleeping on it yeah you know I think that it's a bigger contender than some people think I think we had talked about it also like what are they gonna prefer a movie that has done well with audiences that's about a serious topic um that's making some money um that isn't you know completely being trashed by critics either that has some historic significance and is also from a different studio right or doubling and tripling nominations for Neon and Warner Brothers and Focus.

SPEAKER_02: 1:24:30

That's the other problem that people are coming up with lists that give Netflix two nominations that give Warner Brothers two nominations that give Focus Features two nominations and that's not the way these things pan out I mean I certainly think it's the kind of year where a studio two will double up and get more than one movie in but I don't expect four or three studios to get two movies in it's just not the way things pan out. Yeah we need some new blood here right we need some new studios here and so when you look at it that way you don't have that many you know uh primed contenders you take out Netflix you take out Warner Brothers you take out um you know uh focus features you know you're left with a smaller pile of films you're left with Avatar Disney yeah you're left with Nuremberg you know uh just a smaller group of films and so I there's a really good chance that we end up with at least one or two different studios getting into this this pile.

SPEAKER_03: 1:25:24

Yeah and and I I I think right now that Nuremberg stands a great chance for those two awards you mentioned. I think adapted screenplay like I said right I can see Bugonia going for one nomination five or I can see it going for zero. I do think people are going to have an issue with that third act and Nuremberg is solid enough as a script and as a piece of history I made the comment to you which again people who have this is their job and this is their profession they have decided to campaign Russell Crowe for lead I thought it was a supporting performance. I don't think it's a lead performance I think the lead performance is Ramy and they made a tremendous mistake by not having Russell in supporting he would have gotten in there without a doubt in my opinion I I think he would have gone into supporting I did I did see him though as a lead personally from a screen time perspective to me he is the supporting performance that said I saw the film and I said I don't know if Michael Shannon can miss for this because again he has so many great parts that are emblematic to sort of the theme that they want to drive across to audiences and Michael Shannon is such a respected actor Michael Shannon is the kind of actor who will get in with very little support for any of his performances whether it's Revolutionary Road Nocturnal Animals he doesn't need a whole hell a whole hell of a lot of nominations precursors to crack that top five and in this this year's top five where we said remember we said William Shakespeare is the real guy I would not be surprised if the real guy is Michael Shannon and had they been smart enough to put Russell Crowe in supporting the real guy would have definitely been Russell Crowe who has not been there since uh a beautiful mindful mind and he should have been there technically for Cinderella man it's been 20 years now.

SPEAKER_02: 1:27:05

Right. So uh you know I guess we disagree there you know I don't see Michael Shannon getting in for this I think that Russell Crowe has the babyest role um and I think you're right in terms of screen time he might not come across as the lead but I think that in terms of presence and in terms of sort of being the sort of uh cornerstone of this hurricane I think that's why I think he he feels like a lead um I wasn't crazy about Rami Malik's performance in it personally the character's not great I mean I mean the actual real person sounds like fantastic material. Yeah so I'm not really sure I think acting can be on the table but we have to see how that develops. I think it's by no means a sure bet for acting um and I again I think if someone gets in it's Russell Crowe but I do think watch out for a best picture best screenplay scenario here where you know gets into that 10th spot and steals a screenplay and picture nomination.

SPEAKER_03: 1:27:57

Especially if people keep watching it. Yeah especially like into Thanksgiving like if he keeps making money definitely everyone is sleeping on this movie now we're gonna go ahead and say it first you should not be sleeping on this movie. And this movie could very well end up rounding out the top 10. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:12

And I think that that would make me want to mention uh this other film that you and I have been a little bit more positive about than we were um previously and I think people are maybe starting to get on this train but at the same time not enough people and that's that what if Train Dreams is a bigger movie here uh to place in uh Best Picture I know we just finished saying that we don't like studios doubling up I don't and I I firmly think that Netflix thinks their big push is Frankenstein and it has everything it needs to get an eye for Best Picture. But what if again I'm I'm trying to wonder and you said a very good very interesting thing the other day you said you know what is the independent spirit award winner in this list. Right. You know it's not one battle and it's not right does it qualify. Right it's not Marty Supreme it's probably not Hamnet because I don't think it it has a I think it's a bigger budget. Yeah I'm not sure it's gonna qualify but even if it did I'm not sure it would win. No yeah I I think it would definitely win if it was if it qualified but I don't think it does. I think it's in the upper 35 range.

SPEAKER_03: 1:29:21

The idea that an independent spirit award can go to producers um Steven Spielberg and Sam Mendy's is kind of yeah out of this world.

SPEAKER_02: 1:29:28

That's why I think it's not going to qualify. Sinners is not going to do it Wiki is certainly not going to do it. If I had legs we could do it but it's not going to get anywhere near best picture. Right. Um Frankenstein's not going to do it um it it was just an accident doesn't count and you're just sentimental value because Nuremberg could do it if Nuremberg is you know made modestly enough I guess but there's no way that they're gonna there's something so when you start looking at that you start to wonder listen what in this uh hypothetical best picture list what is the independent independent spirit vote? And if we look at it that way, one of the things that we were using to come up with an answer to that is okay, well, who got nominated for the Gotham? What is the independent spirit movie that got nominated at the Gotham? Because we would figure that the Independent Spirit Award winner for Best Feature would at least show up at the Gotham Best Picture, especially if there are 10 spots. In theory. And if you'd looked at that and you took out movies like Bogonia and One Battle, films that can't compete because they don't qualify. You're left with very, very tiny films like East of Wall and Familiar Touch. Lurker. Lurker.

SPEAKER_03: 1:30:35

Um of which are first films, by the way.

SPEAKER_02: 1:30:37

So Testament of Ann Lee, and we've just discussed, you know, how difficult of a sell that's going to be for Best Picture. Um, you're left with two movies. You're left with Sorry, Baby, and Train Dreams. I know people might be tempted to say, Sorry, baby. We saw it at Sundance. By now, most of you have probably seen it. It's just not their thing. It's very stripped. You know, I think for the Oscars? For the Oscars.

SPEAKER_03: 1:30:58

Oh, there's no way. Unfortunately. Unfortunately, it just doesn't have a support.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:02

Right. We like that movie. And you're really, if you take out Sorry Baby, you're left with Train Dreams. And here's a movie that critics really like. People who are watching it really like it. We saw it with a crowd that really liked it. It's a sell it's based on a celebrated novel from a celebrated writer. Um, it's from the team of Sing Sing that missed out on Best Picture last year. So this is sort of like a possible makeup nomination for Sing Sing, which technically should have been nine for Best Picture because it got three nominations, got more nominations than uh the Nickel Boys. Nickel Boys. Um uh so they like that team. And again, it's well received, it has the source material. Um and in a way, it's a very Terrence Malik-like vehicle. Um, but it's a little bit more accessible than a Terence Malik. Right, than a Terence Malik film. You know, Terence Malik is my favorite filmmaker. Um uh, and you know, we're gonna get into this in a little bit. You know, I was okay with the movie. I I like it quite a bit, but I don't love it like some people do. I think you really loved it. Yeah, I did. Um but I really feel like this film has the ability to connect with audiences and with voters, and that it has kind of everything it needs as well, like Nuremberg, um, except it's more critically acclaimed, um, to surprise here. You know, do I think that Netflix is gonna get two films in? Possibly not, but do I think that of their of their slate, the film to really watch out for is this film over something like Jay Kelly, which is just you know, kind of, you know, oh has only okay critics. You know, it's about something that they tend to like and they nominate often, you know, films about themselves and the industry, but I think there's also a shift happening where maybe they're a little bit more, you know, prone to, you know, kind of been there, done that with that kind of that kind of theme. Um that a movie like this is sort of soft spoken and uh lyrical and poignant and accessible enough to speak to enough people to place it high on their ballots.

SPEAKER_03: 1:33:14

I mean, I I completely agree. I adored the film, and we were lucky enough to see it on a big screen, which um we recommend anyone who has the opportunity to do so. Um I think to me the only thing that's really hurting this film is technically that it's Netflix and they're just so packed with bigger movies, but there's no doubt in my mind from what I've seen this far, and again, I haven't seen Jay Kelly, um, that this is the best movie that Netflix has on their roster. It's just also the quietest film. Um but I also kind of mentioned to you like, are we maybe on the cusp of seeing this trend of having this year sort of really mirror a lot of last year in the sense that like you have um a lot of narratives and a lot of stories and a lot of personalities and and artists coming right from last year into possibly this year, um, and maybe getting similar traction or or or traction or nominations that complement what they got last year. And so, for example, you're right, these these filmmakers and and this director, Clint Bentley, you know, he's he's part of the team that worked with Greg Quadar on SyncSing, they should have been in Best Picture. And so, is that maybe gonna help them factor into maybe getting into that top 10 this year?

SPEAKER_01: 1:34:33

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 1:34:33

Um, again, you have the whole Timothy Chalamet thing, which is whatever he wins, if if he wins this year, there's no doubt in anyone's mind that it has everything to do with the fact that he came incredibly close for playing Bob Dylan, not even a whole year a whole year ago. Yeah, um, you have Al Fanning who could maybe get in this year, um, and and and it has everything to do with just the career she's built up and the fact that she didn't get in last year for a complete unknown. You have the whole Wicked movie, um, you have Mona Fastfold and Brady Corbey there again. And so there's this, I there's this this trend. Is the are the Austrias gonna want to say, I don't want to nominate anyone from last year or just as little as possible? Or are they gonna say, you know, I'm a big fan of what they did last year, and they're sort of just proving me right in terms of I just like what they're doing, and I should have done these things last year, and I didn't do it, and so now it's my chance to sort of correct myself for not having done them. Right. And so I think Train Dreams may be able to do that. We also talk about this idea about I think after seeing it, I think it's a surefire screenplay nominee. Um, I thought it was a surefire cinematography nominee. To me, the only film from Netflix besides New Ville Vogue, which is you know shot um monochromatically in black and white and even on film, other than that, the best looking film that Netflix has is really Train Dreams. And so if we're so if what we're saying is that whoever Netflix gets into cinematography is their best picture nominee, I really do feel like Train Dreams is the best shot they have at cinematography. And does it doesn't help that the cinematographer, for example, for Guillermo de Thomas Frankenstein just got nominated? He just got nominated, he's already been nominated twice. Is he really a cinematographer that the branch is gonna feel is out of caliber to have nominated three times? Right. You know, there are there are I think Greg Frazier is around the three number, maybe he might be close to the three number, maybe a little bit more. But so are they really gonna think, you know, that this uh this deep this cinematographer is is at that level already? Right. Um, and so I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 1:36:34

I mean I wonder I wonder if you know everyone thinks like we did that the cinematography nominee for Netflix that you know has always made it into Best Picture was Frankenstein, maybe it's actually train dreams.

SPEAKER_03: 1:36:47

Exactly. One thing we did agree on, which was kind of shocking and surprising because of you know everything we had sort of anticipated before having seen it, we both kind of agree that Joel Edgerton is fantastic in the film, but he probably will not factor in because it's just too internalized of a performance, right?

SPEAKER_02: 1:37:04

I mean, I did feel that way after seeing it. I think this is the kind of film that's going to speak more to, you know, writers, for example, some texts, uh, some craftsmen, um, more than actors. You know, I think there's a lot of, as you were saying, internalness to the piece that I think is not what the actors typically go for. That being said, I think Joel Edgerton is a respected actor and an esteemed actor who has yet to be nominated. And again, we're talking about people getting a bunch of nominations and some people haven't gotten one yet. Yeah. And so, you know, I do think that if he were able to be in the right vehicle, even if it's not typically what they go for, that his the respect for him as an actor could push him into that fifth spot. Because, you know, we're we'll talk about this maybe. You know, I do feel actor has four spots locked, right? And there's really just one spot we're looking at.

SPEAKER_00: 1:37:56

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:37:56

And so if there is the love there for train dreams, he can ride that wave just based on respect, even if it's not what the actors typically go for. Um, but yeah, after seeing it, I felt like you that it's it's it's it's it's too internal, too quiet, too subdued to to land for the actors.

SPEAKER_03: 1:38:12

The other thing is is that you know, whoever's campaigning it, and like we said, it is Netflix, they really need to focus their effort behind it because this is the kind of film that's quiet enough where I'm not sure it's gonna crack the most popular titles on Netflix. Oh, and you gotta keep reminding critics how great it is, or else it's not gonna, for example, I think it'll do well with critics, actually. I mean critics list. It absolutely needs to, like, there's it cannot miss a it it kind of needs to win that independent spirit award. It can't, it cannot afford it's so quiet and so intimate of a film that it cannot afford, for example, to miss the National Board of Review. It can't afford it, you know what I mean? It really can't afford to miss drama picture at the Golden Globes, and so you have a lot of work to do to make sure that you get those things, right? Because it is, like I said, a quiet film that audiences could easily overlook, critics could overlook. The biggest news that it had was out of Sundance, and that is extremely old news by now.

SPEAKER_00: 1:39:08

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:39:08

But I also will say, you know, as much as we're looking at this possibility of well, we need a sort of independent spirit award representative um in this best picture 10. There usually is one, um, and that this got the goth that train dreams got the Gotham nomination, and and that seems like the most likely pick. I will say that in 2021, we didn't really have one of those because the independent spirit pick was technically the lost daughter, yes, which got the Gotham win and got the Independent Spirit Award win and still missed out. Although but but but even even the lost daughter did not go out empty-handed.

SPEAKER_03: 1:39:45

You're right, it did not go out empty. It got three pivotal nominations, and one would argue that between that and Venice, it should have been in that 10. They just said, I'm gonna nominate Searchlight instead because Searchlight is Searchlight. Um, at the same time, I will say that I believe Coda was an independent spirit award nominee that year. And so you did have was it? I believe I believe so. I believe so. Um, and so you do have, I think, a little bit of overlap there. And so because the independent spirit awards cannot nominate one battle after another or Marty Supreme, you and I are still wondering if they're gonna be able to nominate Hamnet, you you should see at least a little bit of overlap. And Train Dreams is still one of those films that that could potentially do that, right? So let's go ahead now and jump into the other Netflix movie we saw recently, which people are gonna get a chance to uh take a look at um as at the end of November, which is Knives Out Dead Man um Wake Up Dead Man. Okay, um, what did you think?

SPEAKER_02: 1:40:46

Um, I really liked it. You know, I'm a big fan of the Knives Out franchise. I did think that, well, first of all, the first Knives Out was one of my absolutely favorite films of 2019. Uh, it was just such a fucking fun ride. Um, I think it took a dip with um Glass Onion, which I thought was flashier and louder and didn't really help to bring, you know, the magic of the Knives Out franchise to the forefront. But I do think that the third installment gets closer to bringing back that magic. It's a little bit more intimate, it's a little bit smaller in scale, but more profound and deeper uh thematically in scale. Um, I think visually it was rich. Um, again, it's it's it's such a joy to see these, you know, uh amazing um actors working together. Um, the mystery was very fun. I had I thought that Josh O'Connor was so good in it. I thought he was, you know, among the you know best performances of the Nysa franchise um with Anna de Armas, you know, who I think was also great in her in her installment. Um he really stood out to me. I think he's the best performance in the piece. Um, I love Benoit Blanc as well. As always, uh Josh Brolin did a very good job, and so did Glenn Close. Um, I think those were the MVPs. Um, and I like I said, there's you know, this this sort of Edgar Allen Poe-esqueness to it, you know, really I think added uh a dimension to it that that that you know helped in bringing back that magic and and and and made it stand out to me. I don't think it supersedes the first one for me just yet, but certainly better than Glass Onion. Um, and I think it's a very likely nominee for for screenplay, but I don't think that it will transcend that. I don't think that this film is the one that takes the knives out franchise into, you know, larger territory.

SPEAKER_03: 1:42:40

Because they've always sort of been pigeonholed into a screenplay movie exclusively. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:42:44

I don't think this is the one that becomes a best picture nominee and an acting nominee. You know, um people have been whispering and and and and and sort of insinuating that Glenn Close could get in, but really after seeing it, she does have a big scene. Um, you know, but it's very tied to the mystery, you know. And I just don't think that I saw enough from any actor to land into an acting nomination. I think there's a reason why these films tend to be overlooked by the actors, even though they're amazing actors giving good performances, and it's just so fun to see them. But I think the the ensembleness of it all, you know, kind of makes it less attractive to single out a person because you walk out thinking, you know, they're of a piece, all of them, yeah, in a way, or that you had you had certain favorites that other people had, other favorites. Um, so I really feel that it's a screenplay nomination only.

SPEAKER_03: 1:43:37

I mean, I understand where you're coming from, and I agree in large part, but I do see possibly some larger potential depending on how it arrives. Um, I think someone had written that this is gonna be the largest release for Netflix in theaters. This makes money. Interesting. It's becomes a different conversation. It could sort of it could really launch the film into a different place, you know. Sometimes when series or franchises close, there's a little bit more of a soft spot for them. And so I'm not gonna dismiss that possibility. But you know, barring that, I do think it's probably a lock for screenplay, but I do think it could be competitive in a category, for example, like supporting actress, I think Glenn Close has enough material to do it, she certainly has enough esteem to do it. And if you look at that category in general, the issue that we have with that category that we've always had all year all year long, ever since Emily Blunt's film has sort of disappointed, is just you don't have a great winner. And so, in the face of not having a great winner, can we just can we throw a bone to Glenn Close to win, who has already said kind of publicly, yeah, it bothers me that haven't won yet. And and someone mentioned this, I think, online or something, and I completely see it. I think it's completely appropriate. I I don't know if you've seen it yet, but when uh Ingrid Bergman won a supporting actress Oscar, I think, in the 70s for Murder on the Orient Express, she did not deserve to win that Oscar. No way, there's no way, but you know, her being Ingrid Bergman and her being in that stage of her of her career really lent itself to giving her that award. And so I do think that there's certainly a play here, if you're smart, for Netflix to um get in this category because it's gonna be so much easier for her to win than be nominated. So, like phase one is very difficult, phase two, the win is actually very easy. Um, and here's the other thing is that we've talked about the idea you've brought up a bunch of times, right? Right, which is that right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:45:32

Well, I brought up that Netflix has never missed the best supporting actors category, except for I believe 2022, where they didn't have a lot of good contenders. That was the year that interestingly enough, they had Glass Onion. They had Janelle Monet, right, right, who they couldn't push into the supporting actress category.

SPEAKER_03: 1:45:49

Who tell me who technically by that point had enough of a of a sort of filmography to justify her inclusion there? Yeah, she was in hidden figures, she was in Moonlight. You could argue she was a scene stealer in both, and probably the the the bigger scene stealer in hidden figures who did not get nominated, right?

SPEAKER_02: 1:46:05

Um so I so that's an interesting stat about Netflix, but again, it did miss in 2022, so it's not impossible. Um, and it it's kind of ironic that it was also a knives out film. Um, and so that's true, and I do feel that Glenn Close getting into the supporting actress category fixes a huge gaping hole in that category, which is that no one is a great winner, right? Um, and people will, if she gets to that category, she's winning full stop just based on her career 100%. Um, but I just feel very confident that she will not.

SPEAKER_03: 1:46:40

Um at the same time, Netflix has never really run an actor who's been nominated how many times now? Eight times. They've never run an actor who's been nominated eight times from a knives out franchise. So Janelle Monet, that would be her first nomination. J. Moody Curtis in 2019, first nomination, and Darma's first nomination. Um, barring, for example, Christopher Plummer and what, Tony Collette, um, Edward Edward Norton, Tony Collette, Edward Norton, um, Christopher Plummer, Kate Hudson, those are the only previous nominees that they had to run. And then you have Glenn Close, who they're running as a previous nominee, who's been nominated eight times. Right. And so I'm saying that if anyone is gonna break the rule, it would be her.

SPEAKER_02: 1:47:23

Yeah, I yeah, I I I agree with you, but there's another element to this where I feel like they've waited this long that I think that there's a piece of them that might feel like, am I really gonna give it to her for a knives out film? You know, which, you know, as good as she is, and she's very good, you know, Adam Lasture that I think a majority of voters are gonna feel it's one of her top five best performances. I certainly don't feel that way. Right now, right. So it's sort of like I'm thinking they might feel like I can give it to her for something even better because she's that good.

SPEAKER_03: 1:47:54

I mean, let's hope so.

SPEAKER_02: 1:47:55

Yeah, or they're just gonna stick her with an honorary Oscar.

SPEAKER_03: 1:47:58

They may feel like it may be too much of a gamble. Or stick her with an honorary Oscar. I like that. Right. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:48:04

So so right now, again, I could be wrong. And again, if I I'd be happy for her, who wouldn't? Um, but I just don't see enough there to transcend the the the pattern of you know, we don't nominate a knives out ensembles.

SPEAKER_03: 1:48:20

The other one that I would sort of mention here, just sort of like as a footnote, is Josh O'Connor is great in this movie.

SPEAKER_01: 1:48:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:48:26

And Josh O'Connor, uh it should be a surprise to no one, he's had an amazing year. Right. Are they running him lead or supporting him? Supporting. I think there's room in the category. I think if we're saying I don't think there's that much room as you think. I think we're saying, I think if we're saying again, and they're all they're all competing for the same vote, in my opinion. You can have Paul Meskell, who's already been there, um, who can't win from this. You can have Jacob Balorty, but he's playing a creature. And then you can have Josh O'Connor, who's basically in every movie this year and did a good job in all of them, um, and has yet to be nominated. I'm saying I don't think it's impossible. I'm saying I would not be surprised if he shows up at a for a Golden Globe nomination, maybe even a SAG nomination. That's that's all I'm saying about that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:49:16

Right. I as great as he as great as he is in this movie, again, I think it's weird to put him in supporting because he doesn't feel supporting at all. He feels like a lead. I think that's gonna hurt. Um, and I I I disagree with you. I firmly I I I very I I really do think that the best supporting actor category is kind of done. You know, I think it's Skarsgaard, Sean Penn, Paul Meskell, Benicio del Toro, and Adam Sandler. I don't think that that's gonna move. Um, I feel pretty confident about that. Um but yeah, you know, like I said, I'd be happy for her and she'd be like a sigh of relief because like, okay, well, we know who's winning this category now. Um Best Supporting Actress. But uh Yeah, I just don't see it. I think it's a I think it's a screenplay nomination only.

SPEAKER_03: 1:50:00

I think script for sure, do not sleep on those other two. That's that's all that's all I'm saying. Um, well, let's jump then to a movie, a couple of movies that people have sort of had on the outlier of best picture, one of which I think we liked a lot, but I think after seeing it, I think we're in agreement. Um, no other choice from South Korea, right?

SPEAKER_02: 1:50:22

Um, we were able to see No Other Choice a couple weeks ago. Um, Park Chang Wuk's uh satirical black comedy thriller. Uh it's a dark fable on you know contemporary woe culture, woe war culture. Um, I absolutely loved it. I think it's one of the best films of the year. I think it's one of Park Chang Wuk's best. Um, it was uh biting and tragic and uh so resonant and timely and you know invigorating. I loved it. Um I think the crowd we saw it with liked it as well. Um, it's accessible and it's just you know beautifully composed. No surprise there from Par Chang Wuk. I will say that I feel pretty confident. I think is this is what you were you know implying that it will not be nominated for foreign language film, um, and that it's gonna be blanked. It's not gonna be we're talking about best picture. Yeah, I don't think it will be nominated for anything.

SPEAKER_03: 1:51:15

Well, I'll tell you what, I I really enjoyed the film as well. I thought it was very good. It's certainly one of my favorites of the year. Um, tremendous work by Park Chan Wuk, great performance by Vingo. Very good. Um, yeah, he's fantastic. Fantastic in it. And listen, I think somewhere between the topic maybe not being timely enough, Neon having way too many movies, and Park Chan Wook getting in some hot water earlier this year with the WGA, somewhere between all that is a snub waiting to happen for no other choice.

SPEAKER_02: 1:51:47

Right. You feel like the topic's not timely with you know the sort of I think we're reaching this fever pitch of immigration regard to I think you're right.

SPEAKER_03: 1:51:56

I think I take that back.

SPEAKER_02: 1:51:57

Machining of you know the you know right force.

SPEAKER_03: 1:52:00

I think that it's maybe a very timely topic that I overlooked. Um, and maybe that'll be the factor that helps it get in for foreign film. Um but I think that they've just had such a strong history of not liking Park John Wook films. Um that's true. At the same time, you know, the source material, Donald West like a little bit more respected in sort of uh American cinema vernacular. Yeah. And so I wouldn't be surprised if that helps also. Um I think it's really gonna need the international community to get behind it um for it to score any kind of nomination, but certainly international film and anything else. Like, for example, I wouldn't, I don't know where they're campaigning it, what category, but I wouldn't sleep on Li Bye-in getting in for best actor at the Golden Globes. Really? For example, uh comedy. I I think then I think he's in for that category, to be perfectly honest. Um, I don't I don't think he can repeat that anywhere else, unfortunately. Um, and it would have to be like the critics darling across the board, across the board. And I just don't think that it has um the same urgency there as you know, something like One Battle has Son Dance Canada Happen. Um, but I think it's a solid film. I think you're right. It's so it's timely enough where it can get into best foreign language film, but I think there's only three neon films for best foreign film. Right. I don't think there's any more than that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:53:24

I agree with that, and I I will say that as much as I loved it, I still feel like it won't get an eye for a foreign language film. I think unfortunately, Par Chang Wuk is a little bit, as you were saying, in hot water that I think is going to affect the nomination tally for him and this film. Um certainly in screenplay, certainly in best picture, and even in best foreign film.

SPEAKER_03: 1:53:44

Can you imagine if it dig an eye for best adapted screenplay after all that with the Oscars? Like I think ironic, yeah. Yeah, they're gonna be some some very upset guild members. Right, but I loved it. Yeah, very good film. And I think after you sort of reminded me, you know, I think it may just be timely enough in ways that other Parchon Wook films aren't to maybe sneak in there. But it would be it would have to be over the secret agent or or or or any other neon film, but you only have spots for three. Yeah, that's the problem.

SPEAKER_02: 1:54:16

So you already have well, because you already have, yeah, it's really hard to be the secret agent, sentimental value, and it was just an accident.

SPEAKER_03: 1:54:23

It's very hard. Yeah. So I I don't and and by the way, I one film that you know we haven't had the opportunity to screen yet, which is getting a lot of great notices, is Surrat. So that's that's really the killer right there. Yeah. Um, so then why don't we jump about talking about um film that I didn't get a chance to see, but you saw it, and and actually I I was really happy to hear you were a fan of it. Let's talk about um Bradley Cooper's new film from Searchlight.

SPEAKER_02: 1:54:46

Yes, I really enjoyed watching uh this is this thing on. To my surprise, I yeah, you were sort of like I was kind of a negative when I saw the trailer. I've been a little bit on a downswing for um uh Bradley Cooper, you know, after Maestro, which I wasn't crazy about. I'll say that of his three films, I think it's the film I like most. I I knew it. I freaking knew it. Um, it's just really charming and it's very inviting. It has this very accessible energy. It's it's fun, it's funny, it's sweet, it's poignant, and it's well done. You know, like I think Bradley Cooper brought a dynamism to it that he was able to sort of acquire in his first two films that I think really helped this movie flow, you know. And the crowd, it was I saw it with a packed crowd, um, and everyone loved it. And um Will Arnett gives his best performance, you know. He you know hasn't stretched himself too much in the you know dramatic actor space. Um, but he's quite lovely here. Laura Dern is is good. Um, but Will Arnett I think is the star. And um it's just it was a film that's just you know, it's just like sitting down with a with a with a friend and and and and having a nice vibe, you know. You know, it's it was very inviting, it was warm, it was it was it was funny. Um, so I quite liked it. The crowd I saw with, you know, was laughing and having a good time. I'll say that I didn't love the ending, which again, I won't spoil it, but there's something about the ending that I think, you know that's the most important part of the movie. Well, but the thing that I don't like about it is very particular. It's not it's not like Bugonia, which you know, I you know, some people are just not gonna like that ending period. Right. Um, it's more like there's an aspect there's something about the ending that I think another film called Dibson that I don't think I don't think anybody can use it after that film used it. And so like that's the one thing that I thought, like, oh come on, you know, you know, I didn't like that. Interesting. Uh as soon as you see it, if you if any of you have seen it, or as soon as you'll see it, you you know, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Um uh but I quite enjoyed it, but I don't think that it's gonna land anywhere. I think the only place it could technically land if enough writers see it and enjoy it, but they've already nominated him twice, and I think that there's going to be a prevailing um sentiment sentiment that even though it's a good Bradley Cooper film, that the other two were more like you know, difficult films. Pompacy. Yeah, they were more difficult films, and you know, uh because they were more difficult, I guess they were bigger achievements, even if you know they liked it. Uh this third film. Um, so I don't see them um embracing it for our screenplay nomination. I think Best Actor is the most competitive category of the year for in the acting category, certainly. So I don't think we'll not we'll we'll we'll get nominated there, but I I don't see how he doesn't get a Golden Globe nomination out of this. They're running a drama now, right? Still, I don't see how he doesn't get a Golden Globe nomination out of this. Um and yeah, I was a big fan. I think you'll like it a lot when you see it.

SPEAKER_03: 1:58:04

I love the trailer and I was I was disappointed to have missed it, but I I I'm so glad to hear that you liked it. I hope we don't yin yang on it. Um I'm not a fan of Bradley Cooper's directing efforts at all. Um, but I did like this trailer a lot. Um, so many things that you're saying are striking to me. Um, primarily because Searchlight does have a reputation of getting into Best Picture, and I know that they sort of railroaded this movie by buying Anne Lee. You've seen Ann Lee now, and you don't think it's gonna get anywhere near Best Picture. I've seen Anne Lee and I think it's really close to Best Picture, and so it's interesting that you're saying Anne Lee can't get anywhere near it. But is this thing on you enjoyed a lot and is much more accessible, but you have your hesitation about whether or not I can break through at the same time. Like I look at original screenplay and I see open spots because if you're if the best you're giving me is weapons, and again, I I enjoyed weapons immensely, I just know it's not necessarily their thing. Um, if the best you're giving me is weapons, sinners can possibly be two genres. Can is this thing on crash that category? Um, I think it can. I think between you know Will Arnett and Bradley Cooper and just the topic and the searchlight element to it, I think it could end up surprising there.

SPEAKER_02: 1:59:18

I certainly think it's a film that's tailor-made to be a crowd pleaser. And so I I'll be curious to see if the audience shows up for it. Oh wow, yeah. Because Christmas, yeah, because I do think that if they do and it makes money, I think it as you were have used been as you've been hinting throughout the conversation, it's a different story. Yeah. Um, and again, the crowd I saw was laughing and having a good time. Yeah. Um, but I just not sure that again, we're in that climate where films are having an easy time finding an audience, even if they're crop pleasers.

SPEAKER_03: 1:59:50

I mean, I can't wait to see it. Um, I definitely think you should keep an eye on air for original screenplay. Um, the other thing I'll say, and I think it's a great bridge into the next movie we're going to talk about, is With our net, I think he's gonna get a lot of respect for putting himself out there like that and doing it as successfully as you're saying. And so I remember when um Sarah Silverman, who I love, um, gave her performance for I Smile Back, which is a performance that I respect tremendously, and she was able to get a SAG nomination for that. I do wonder, you know, as crowded as a year as it is for Best Actor, you know, Will Arnett has put in so much time in the industry. Very seldom is he ever gonna run elite actor campaign. Does the sag at least say, No way am I gonna pass up a chance to nominate Will Arnett in a film directed by fellow actor Bradley Cooper, um, where um where he's you know playing, where he's you know digging into his own, possibly his own life for material. Right. Um, and also doing a dramatic role, the the principal role, number one on on the call sheet. And so, no way am I gonna pass up the opportunity to nominate him there. So I do wonder about that. I'm not sure I'm as you said, I'm not sure at the end he'll be able to you know broker that into a nomination because they may have had to have snubbed Wagner Mora to to make room for Will Arnett, but I do wonder if Will Arnett is gonna be able to get that same sort of uh love that Sarah Silverman was able to get. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_02: 2:01:16

That's a good point. I think that's that's kind of interesting. That's interesting. I think that's very possible.

SPEAKER_03: 2:01:19

And so the next film to talk about, I think uh a lot of people have seen, but we finally caught up with, which is uh Springsteen, right? Another best actor contender.

SPEAKER_02: 2:01:26

Yes, which underperformed at the box office.

SPEAKER_03: 2:01:28

Again, another another very disappointing premiere from the fall.

SPEAKER_02: 2:01:33

Right. And and you and I were kind of sensing that this film was going to underperform with critics since we saw the trailer all the way back in the summer. Um sometimes we have a good sixth sense, sometimes we don't, but you know, in that I think it's better, it's more good than bad. And we were just sensing that, you know, they just did the Bob Dylan, you know, complete unknown music biopic. It just seems too soon to do another one of those. Uh once it came out in Teddy Ride, you know, there was a lot of buzz about you know the Jeremy Allen White performance. So we thought, well, maybe it's a single nominee for best actor for Jeremy Allen White, even though Jeremy Allen White is kind of a weird person, also, um, because he very much mimics a lot Rami Malik, who won for something similar, because they're both more were more known for their TW their TV work before they won, before Rami Malik won for uh Bohemian Rhapsody. Uh so again, uh Jeremy Allen White is known more for his TV work. He's also been very celebrated for his TV work. Um, some people might have thought that that could help him because that means a lot of, you know, there are probably a lot of actors who watch the bear and are fans, but that could also hurt because you know you're used to seeing me on the bear and you kind of know that he's been so celebrated on the bear that he kind of has to prove that he's ready to make the jump into like the best actor category. Right. So you and I were really thinking for a long time, okay, well, maybe this is a solo nominee for best actor. And then uh Ethan Hawke really started to pick up steam for Blue Moon. And I think it became quite clear to you and I very early on that that solo nominee spot was going to be either Ethan Hawke or Jeremy Allen White. Ethan Hawke had the critics, had the Berlin premiere, Jeremy Allen White had what they typically like, even though again Blue Moon is, you know, uh about the industry in a way, um, about a figure in the industry in a way, and and and this is also something that they liked. So just there was a lot of parallel that there was a big parallel between the two, you know, and that best actor spot. And the question of, you know, whether is there room for both? Right, right, exactly. I thought absolutely no way, it's one or the other. And then when I first saw Blue Moon, I thought, well, you know, it the film, you know, is certainly very acclaimed, but it's also very static, you know, and so maybe they're just gonna be more drawn to the flashiness of um Springsteen Springsteen, and actually the opposite happened, you know, uh Springsteen ended up having even more middle of the road reviews um and didn't do well at the box office, as you and I were thinking that it might have done. You gotta get one, exactly. And so I think all of those factors really started to lessen its uh ability to uh jump over someone like Ethan Hawk, who's been waiting to get in uh since he was, you know, notoriously and and just horrendously snubbed for first reforms for best actor. And so now more than a decade since boyhood. Uh yeah, and boyhood. Um, he's a respected actor, never gone lead. He's never been eye for lead. Um, and so just the stars are aligning for Ethan Hawk to certainly get his uh I think it's his third acting nomination, first time in lead. Um, and that he will beat Jeremy Allen White for that spot. Right. As far as the movie goes, I'll just say that, you know, I wasn't a huge fan of it. You know, I think that it's well intentioned. I like its concept of trying to focus on this difficult period of Bruce Springsteen and his creation of Nebraska and his struggles with uh with with trauma and and depression. Um, but I just feel like the film to me felt like the concept never fully uh bec uh flourished. It kind of stayed at concept level, right? Um, and that's just and we were talking about after we saw the movie, that's kind of a critique I have a lot about this director, Scott Cooper, and and a feeling that I I feel often when I see his films. Um and so, you know, I don't think the film hits hard enough. Um, and uh again, you know, it feels a little bit stuck in concept level, right? You know, as a as opposed to a full rendering, you know, character-wise, story-wise. Um, and I will say that I think the performances were very good. Um, I think Jeremy Allen White is good. I think Odessa Young was good. And I have to say my favorite performance was actually uh Jeremy Strong, you know, which was not what I expected. Uh seeing the previews, it felt like very, you know, Oscar Beatty. But I have to say that it really worked for me. You know, I think you know, he was a character that felt inhabited, you know, and uh not showy in a way that I think was quite effective. Um, so that was maybe my favorite performance of uh of the movie. And again, uh all this to say that I don't think the film is going to get nominated for any Oscars. Okay. Um, and it's a it's a zero nominee, even though I do expect Jeremy Allen White to get a sag and globe nomination, both or one or the other, possibly um Jeremy Strong to land uh somewhere as well, Globe or Sag. I think it hurts that Jeremy was just there.

SPEAKER_03: 2:06:44

Had he been snubbed, anywhere that he had been snubbed for The Apprentice, I would say that he would get in for this movie. Right. But he got in everything. He got the sag, the globe, and the Oscar.

SPEAKER_02: 2:06:53

That's why you and I were always very cold on Jeremy Strong getting nominated for this, because you know, like I said, repeat nominations, you know, consecutive nominations are very difficult, right? Despite some people thinking that they're easier than they are. Um, and I just uh it's too soon, too soon, especially if he's not winning.

SPEAKER_03: 2:07:09

I I was a big fan of Stephen Graham in the film. Um I'm a big Stephen Graham. Oh, yeah, Stephen Graham is very good at his book. Um Adessa Young, I thought did a great job too. Um, I was kind of a little bit mixed on the Jeremy Ann Lynn White performance, but it really grew on me on the second half. Um, and I liked it, and I really respected the performance he gave. And I thought um he did a very good job, and I think he has a very bright future ahead of him. Um, I just don't think that it scored enough between critics and general audience uh members to make the argument for the best actor nomination, so I don't think he'll get very far. But that said, it reminded me a lot of something that I see sort of evolving in the best actor race, um, which is that we don't really have any shortage of worthy performances. We have a lot of worthy performances. Um, this goes back to like Dwayne Johnson, for example. Jesse Plemons is fantastic in his film. It's really gonna come down to like who gets there first. And so this is the argument that I made, and I hope we can talk about it further in another episode. But the argument I made was after seeing the film and we were lucky enough to see it together, um, I liked it. I liked the film. I gotta say that. Um, it's on the the side of Scott Cooper films that I enjoyed. I understand that it's not trying to reinvent the wheel at all, um, that it's borrowed the wheel from the wheel store and it's not doing anything new, but I think it does it um with um enough humanity that I enjoyed the film. Um, but what was interesting to me is, you know, as we discuss the prospects of the film is the idea that because they're all sort of tied, Jeremy Allen White, Dwayne Johnson, Jesse Plemmins, you know, is a more established actor, but at the same time it's a more alienating film. Because they're all sort of tied, it's really gonna come down to, and and what I thought what I was trying to suggest to you, it's gonna come down to who's able to get that final sag nomination, and if anyone is able to sort of broker their golden globe nomination into a golden globe win. And so, for example, you and I have always been hot on the idea that Wagner Mora is gonna win the Golden Globe drama, yeah, which is I which is still our theory number A. Yeah, but if something happens that they do not want to give it to Wagner Mora, that best actor list on the drama side, any one of them can win. All the favorites twin best actor, you know, a lot of the strong contenders are actually on the comedy side. Yeah, and so if Jeremy Allen White wins the Golden Globe because they don't want to give it to Wagner Mora, that may be all he needs. If Dwayne Johnson wins the Golden Globe, we talked to Michael B. Jordan. If Michael B. Jordan can can go from Sinners being maybe one of the few best actor nominees actually listed in Best Picture to winning the Golden Globe for Best Actor, then vampire film be damned. I think Michael B. Jordan gets in for Sinners.

SPEAKER_02: 2:10:06

Right now he's I think a favorite to get in, but you and I are predicting that he won't because of the whole vampire thing. And not only that, that that that actually Warner Brothers, their acting vehicle, is clearly what that would turn out. Yeah. And usually when when they've had more than one film in Best Picture, there's usually one that's their actor film and one that's their more you know tech film.

SPEAKER_03: 2:10:26

Yeah, and Sinners fits the bill a little bit better in terms of their being their tech film. Um, but you know, if he wins that golden globe, I think that he would have to get in. Um, the same thing for any of those other, for example, Russell Crowe wins the Golden Globe. I think Russell Crowe would have to get in for Nuremberg.

SPEAKER_00: 2:10:44

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 2:10:44

And so to me, Jeremy Allen White, Russell Crowe, Dwayne Johnson, um, Jesse Plemens, uh, Wagner Mora, really, it's just a race to who wins the Golden Globe drama.

SPEAKER_01: 2:10:58

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 2:10:58

Because we already know so many actors are gonna get in from the comedy side, and the favorite to win is gonna get in from the comedy side. Right. And so it's really just a matter of the race to Golden Globe Best Actor drama, and is the advantage right now with Michael B. Jordan because of his competitors, Train Dreams, Springsteen, Smashing Machine, he may be the only one to feature in a best picture movie. Yeah, exactly, 100%. So I think that's the big takeaway I took from Springsteen. Solid performance could happen. The campaign needs to focus on winning the Golden Globe. That's every actor's concern is winning the Golden Globe drama. Forget about anything else.

SPEAKER_02: 2:11:36

No, I think that's an excellent point. I again, I don't think I don't see it happening, but I I do agree with you that if he were somehow able to win the Golden Globe, I think that that changes things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 2:11:44

All right. Well, let's talk about another film that disappointed um when it came out. And I think you and I kind of knew that it was going to disappoint. Um, we got a chance to screen it. Um, we're switching over to Best Actress now. And let's talk about Christie um with Sydney Sweeney. And this was released by Black Bear, Black Bear's first film that they're releasing, um, distributing themselves. They're more known on their production design, uh, excuse me, the production side, for example, they are uh part of the uh production of Train Dreams, um, which they then sold to Netflix. But um, I think they were unhappy with um the deals they were getting to distribute their film, so they went on out of their way to distribute uh Sydney Sweeney's uh film. It's their first film, it faceplanted more or less. Um, the audiences didn't come, unfortunately. Um, right. Here's another contender in the best actress race that was very much trying to play the real person card against Amanda Seyfried, who she will actually co-star with this Christmas in The Housemate. So that's extra fun, extra meta there. Um, but so so Christy, what did you think?

SPEAKER_02: 2:12:52

Um, first I'll just say that I'm a huge David Machode fan. Um, so I was actually excited to see Christy. Um, I think it's his weakest film. I was not a big fan. Um, I think there's a lot of things about the way this film was done that are a little bit uh you know sloppy for his standards. You know, I think he's such a particular filmmaker that to me it felt a little bit by the numbers. Something that's not uh that that is weird to say with this filmmaker because his films are very not very much not that. Um, you know, it at times kind of flirted with being like a lifetime movie. Um and I don't I take no pleasure in saying that. Um uh I certainly think the first half of the film is the weakest part. And I think that the second half of the film, when we get into the, you know, uh we get further into the uh abuse that she underwent at the hands that that Christy underwent at the hands of her husband, I think the film sort of starts to attain a little bit more uh energy, a little bit more power. It's like a jolt. Yeah. Um, and then it gets so incredibly violent at the very end of the film that you know you can't help but be amazed at what this woman was able to overcome. Certainly you cannot take that away. You know, it's an an incredible real life story, and and what happens to her is is so uh nightmarish that um it's it's appalling. Um and that she was able to overcome that again is is is very uh inspiring. Um that being said though, if this wasn't, and you made the point, I think it's an excellent point, that if this wasn't a real life story and it was a fictional story, and that same uh, you know, those events that transpired towards the end of the film end up making the page and end up making the screen, that would have been very problematic. Because it it was such a shift, you know, um uh uh story-wise, thematically, you know, the energy of the piece. It's just such an uh it's just such a shift that it would have been it would have been borderline unacceptable.

SPEAKER_03: 2:15:02

Yeah. I I that's the way I felt as well, is that there comes a moment in the film, if you've seen it and you know you shouldn't try to watch it in the big screen if you get a chance. Um there comes a moment in the film where just the weight of what actually happened to Christy Martin is uh, as you said, uh a nightmarish and again, just her story, her ability to overcome that, to uh to persevere in the face of that is just absolutely extraordinary. To the point where if the film were fictional, those elements or that particular element that I'm referencing, and once you see the film, you'll know what we're talking about is absolutely infuriating. Yeah. Because you just it would be infuriating. It's it would be infuriating because the film in large part does not earn it. Right. Does not earn, you know, the amazing comeback that that character has.

SPEAKER_00: 2:16:05

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 2:16:06

Um not only that, doesn't also earn going into that territory. Into that territory.

SPEAKER_02: 2:16:10

Yeah, that territory.

SPEAKER_03: 2:16:12

You know, it's almost and the fact that it's real to me was also kind of frustrating because, like, how do you not, in my opinion, render the film more passionately on the road to that? If you know that's where it goes. You know, I don't think playing, you know, painting by numbers and having a conventional take on it really helped, right? Really helped. Um, and so it was it was kind of frustrating, especially from David, who's so immensely talented. Yeah, um, at the same time, you know, this has always been sort of uh pushed as a vehicle for Cindy Sweeney, who plays Christy Martin, um ever since the the Toronto premiere. Um I think it's a very good uh I think it's a good performance, um, despite the shortcomings on the script. Um I don't think it's her best performance. I think I liked her a little bit more in reality, for example, which did not get a theatrical release, unfortunately. Um, but I think it's a solid performance. I understand that it has sort of the package to to want to push for best actress. It's a good role, it's a good role. It's a good role. I think when you see the film, the the true story might be so impacting enough that it could, you know, potentially get in for a sag nomination. I think a golden globe nomination is a given. But I also think that if enough people don't see the film, and that's where it's sort of headed right now, it could just be a Golden Globe nominee. I will say my favorite performance is actually comes from Ben Foster, who's an actor that I absolutely adore, and I think you know the depths that he has to go to are you know a very, I think, very difficult thing to do. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 2:17:49

I mean, I I think it was a good role. I saw I see the attraction there, and I see why it's being pushed for for best actress. I think that at times I often felt actually I shouldn't say at times, I often felt that she was miscast. I thought that the the role felt like it was should have been given to an older, more seasoned actress. Yes. Um, but I will say that when it gets into that really dark terrain, I think she really kind of uh embraces it in a way that I think is effective. Um, so I appreciate that. Um and I do think that a Golden Globe nomination is very possible. I think it won't get a SAG nomination. I think the only chance it would have gotten a sag nomination is if it had been a hit, which it wasn't. Right, which it wasn't. Um, so I think it's globe and that's it at most. Um I think that there are aspects that I agree with you about Ben Foster. I think there are moments where, again, he's an incredible, he's one of our greatest actors. And so there are moments where I think I I was really able to feel that, you know, that wrath and that authenticity from his portrayal. But there are other moments where I think he comes across, whether it be because of his choices or because of how he's being um uh shot and how he's being uh directed, that he can come across a little bit too similar to like a caricature of what he's portraying. So I don't think he can fully escape that. But I think there are plenty of talented actors in this movie. You know, Mary Weaver has a few scenes, and I think she was I thought she was very um effective and in portraying this very cold character. I thought Katie O'Brien was a breath of fresh air.

SPEAKER_03: 2:19:30

Katie O'Brien was great in it to the point where I had to say, why the hell wasn't Katie O'Brien given the Christy Martin part? I will say that. Yeah, you know, she just had such a naturalistic presence, but physically though, maybe she just doesn't resemble Christy Martin too much. Maybe, but I do think that you're right. So many of the performances in the film border on caricature, and what Katie O'Brien is giving you is feels completely different. That I would have preferred the movie with Katie O'Brien in the lead part.

SPEAKER_02: 2:20:02

Yeah, and I think that's fair. I think that's fair. Um, I will say that one of the biggest things, one of the biggest takeaways for me from this whole Christie thing is that, you know, I've been really disappointed in Sydney Sweeney and how she's handled the sort of controversy that has surrounded her after the Jeans ad and whatnot, and uh, and Trump, you know, putting his foot in his mouth and commenting. I really don't like how she handled that. I really don't like how maybe she was advised to handle that by her team. Um, and I will say that uh an experience of, you know, uh what's happened with Christy, I think, is really crystallizing of how, you know, uh how sort of distorted this whole thing is. You know, you're in a way, it seems like not commenting on that controversy and putting things right for, you know, uh many people who are offended by the ad, at least having a dialogue about it, a conversation about it, um, was pandering to a fan base that she maybe is aware that she has. Somehow the right thinks that she's their adopted daughter, um, without understanding that a lot of her work is work that they would never watch, they would never see The White Lotus, they would never see reality, which is anti-Trump. Um, they would never see Christy because it's about a lesbian boxer. At the end of the day, yeah. And so it's really sad that you in a way possibly pander to this audience that won't show up for you, won't show up for your craft, right, won't show up for art because so much of art is, you know, uh outside of what they're interested in. Right. You know, um, and so in a way, I just think that it's very uh uh misguided from her or her team or both about how she's gonna handle this stardom and this attention. Um and I think hopefully she saw where it's you know, where it's leading her, hopefully she saw what it's giving her, right? You know, which is uh a film that was liked by many at Toronto and has some good reviews from many people who did like it and flopped, you know, and here's a story that I think it's a story that deserves to be told. I think Christy's story is incredible. Um, and so I just think it's such a shame that you know you are just so misguided um in you know your your craft that you don't understand where you're standing and where you should be standing.

SPEAKER_03: 2:22:42

Right. I think it's I think it's more a miscalculation in terms of the publicity side. Um, because I do think it reveals that as much as you know, audience certain audience members are gonna, you know, show up when you give them something that pleases them, if you want to go and try to make something that's a little bit more challenging, make something that, you know, uh is probably going to uh you know show your peers um what you're capable of and maybe show another side of of what you can do, uh they're very much less likely to show up. And so I think you have to be careful in this day and age of you know not alienating too many people. Um I think it's I think it's disappointing. I think I'm sure that's not the launch that she or her team or Black Bear would have wanted, but I think at the very least it sort of shows the industry that you know she's a capable actress. Um, she just needs good material. Um at the same time, I will say that, you know, I think she kind of showed that with reality, if you had seen reality. Right. Um, so yeah, I think it's it's growing pains. I think it's growing pains, but I think like other young actors, Jeremy Allen White, Jacob Lordy, it puts her in the trajectory to be nominated in the future.

SPEAKER_02: 2:23:56

Yeah, but like I said, I would go further. I would say there's a little bit of reaping and sowing here, you know, because if you're if you're so adamant about not, you know, confronting things that are you know important to a lot of people because you're trying to pander to a different group of people that at the same time just like you saying, it they're not gonna show up for for art, they're not gonna show up for this. You know, there's there's there's a lack of uh there's there's something very incoherent and antithetical about the whole thing, right?

SPEAKER_03: 2:24:28

No, I I understand that. I I could see that. Right. Um, so that was interesting. I think why don't we talk about another film um in the best actress category that was not a people pleaser? Um that being said, it made more money than I thought. And so let's just take a moment here to reiterate how much you enjoyed Die My Love. I yeah, you haven't gotten a chance to see. D pluses for Die My Love.

SPEAKER_02: 2:24:51

Yeah, but uh, you know, we mentioned it in our previous episode when we talked about Can. I love that film. But you and I both knew that it was a film that was destined to not do well uh with general audiences, even at Can, which is a Cinephile's paradise. There were a lot of mixed reactions, a lot of polarized reactions, even if it was doing well critically. We always thought that it would do well critically. Um, again, it's one of my favorite films of the year, but the film is very uh uh operating on this wavelength that you know uh it can be very distancing work, it can be very isolating work. Um uh Lynn Ramsey is a genius, and you see all her gifts in this film uh full stop. But it's uh a film that's really trying to help that's really that really manages to get you to access this very particular and uh scary and you know frightening and surreal trauma. Um, and so the film is so immensely successful in putting you in the mindset of this character. Um, it's it's invigorating work by Lynn Ramsey, by Lynn Ramsey by Jennifer Lawrence, who gives her best performance to date, but it's challenging work, and it's definitely something that I thought a lot of audiences were going to be repelled by.

SPEAKER_03: 2:26:19

And they were, and they were, and they lived up to their part of the bargain because they were, but you know, at least it wasn't enough.

SPEAKER_02: 2:26:25

Right, but then I joke, you know, like if you get a Lindsay Ramsay movie that's a D plus that just shows you how good it is. Yeah, that's probably one hell of a Lynn Ramsey. Right. And so um, so I can't wait, I can't wait for you to see it. I loved it. If you get a chance, try to see it in the theater. At the same time, it didn't make money, right? Well, I mean it made I mean it made some money, like it didn't make Christie money, you know, but it it it it it made some money, but still very, very, very low from what it needed to make, especially when you consider the movie paid 24 million dollars to acquire it.

SPEAKER_03: 2:26:55

Right, which is out of this world. But at the same time, I mean we're living in a world where Dye My Love has outgrossed Christy, and that that says something. Yeah, right. Um, because that's interesting. It is interesting, and it's the other thing. Christy, like, it's too long, like way too long, way too long of a movie. Way because like even Nuremberg, which plays it safe, was smart enough to be, you know, was smart enough to do it well enough that people went to go see it. Right. Well, people some people will absolutely feel that Die My Love is too long as well. I'm sure that and and and and that reflects in the D Plus. That said, they already got the people to buy the ticket, so they're not getting refunds, and so it outgrows Christy, which was a pleasant surprise. I think I wasn't expecting that. Um, I think one thing I want to ask you because you had a moment to recently revisit it, and to me, this is this is where the argument comes, which is D Plus be damned. Die My Love has made enough money to at least be nominated for a Golden Globe actress drama, in my opinion. I don't think you can do anything else, but I think there's that. But now that Die My Love has come out and gotten a D plus and made what is it, like two million plus? Two million. Like three million. Yeah, maybe it'll make five over its run in theaters, maybe. But now that it's made that, the reality is that it has made substantially more than if I had legs I'd kick you. Yeah, which is a similarly themed film, which will compete in a different uh category at the Golden Globes, but they will it will be perpetually haunted by the idea that these two films are of a piece, you know, that are they're sort of cousin projects or sister projects, and so now that one is just so much more financially successful than the other, is that going to factor into the best actress race? Um bear in mind also, let me just preface this by saying there are five spots for best actress. You already have Jesse Buckley and Rantara Rhines, you're saying Amanda Seyfried is undeniable, and Emma Stone is there with Venice with Bogonia. And my point is we have so much challenging material in Best Actress, right? That is Rose Byrne going to be the victim of she's in the challenging material that is most anonymous because we have no idea as an Oscar voter who Mary Bronsteen is, right? And because Rose Byrne isn't a headliner like Emma Stone or Jennifer Lawrence or a previous nominee like either of those, um, she's not real like uh Ann Lee, and it just didn't make enough money. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 2:29:33

Um it's it's an interesting question. I do think that there's a difference in the sense that I I believe that more audiences will hate Dime I Love and uh more audiences will maybe be a little bit, you know, it's not my thing about uh if I had legs, I'd kick you. I still think there's things about If I had legs I'd kick you, that certainly would be will feel nebulous to some people who watch it, um, but not as inaccessible to some people as um Die My Love might be. Again, Llen Ramsey's really working brilliantly in getting you into the psyche of this tortured and troubled young woman. And I think Dyma and I think uh if I had like that kick you spends a little bit more time in sort of the chaos of motherhood that could be maybe possibly a little bit more penetrable than the you know broken psyche of a you know disappearing woman, you know, uh internally. Right. Um both terrific films. I got a chance to, like, as I said earlier in the episode to revisit if I had like kick you, which I was lukewarm after I saw that Sundance, but I quite liked it now. Um both terrific performances among the very best um of actresses this year. I think it helps Rose Byrne that she is um never been nominated and is possibly or very likely a very likable person, very likable actor. She's worked with a lot of people, she's never gotten her flowers, she won Berlin. Um, this film has shown up everywhere. Went to Berlin, went to Sundance, went to Toronto, went to Tiff, went to New York, just won everywhere. Um uh and I think she's an actor that people have grown to love, you know, for her comedy skills, for her, she's just an insanely talented actor. And I think her peers know that. And when they see if a headlights that kick you, they're going to see a stretch. They're going to see her stretching herself in a way that they don't often see her. And there's that's going to be attractive. Um, Jennifer Lawrence is certainly stretching herself. She's going for broke in uh Die My Love, it's her best performance. But she's already a four-time nominee. She's already an Oscar winner, and they've already seen her stretch herself. You know, they've already experienced mother, you know, and this is very much in the mother vein. Right. You know, um, and so in a way, it's a little bit more uh possibly it could be more attractive with the Rose Byrne, with Rose Byrne than with her. Right. Um, and again, it's all wrapped in this bubble for Dam I Love of a film that I think a lot of people will actively hate. You know, um, and again, I think that certain things about if I had legs, I'd kick you, you know, can pass. Right. You know, for you know, I didn't get that, but this was effective and that was effective, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 2:32:42

I mean, I have to revisit if I had legs, I will when I get an opportunity, and I have to watch Die My Love. I love Lynn Ramsey's work, though. Oh, yes. But it seems to me like the stars are aligning for a Roseburn snub for the ages. Um, that she's I think in an extremely strong position to get in a very similar position that Ethan Hawke was in for first reformed, but in in the same way that that film was just possibly too alienating for actors. Right. Um I I'm starting to think that if I had legs I'd kick you is gonna go the way of first reformed, Ethan Hawk, Daniel Craig for Queer, which is uh she's too alone, she's too young, um, she's uh in too challenging of a film that that did not make enough money, that is not anywhere near a priority for for A24, and that will probably be sort of her Achilles heel and probably have her missing out at the very end. And so, like, you're right, maybe Die My Love is too alienating as well, but then then I'm starting to think that if if we have to choose someone between all this challenging work beside Amanda Safree, then maybe the safest option will end up at the at the end of the day end up being Emma Stone.

SPEAKER_02: 2:34:06

Well, I I I think that's valid. I will say, well, first of all, I think that first reformed is more like die my love than it is like if I had like Z KQ. Um that's that would be my impression because there's something really opaque about uh first reformed that is similar to the opaqueness that is in Die My Love. I think if I had like Z KQ is I won't put it past the territory of opaque, but but but not as much as Die My Love. Um but but uh you bring up a good point. I really don't like when you say she's so young, she's too young. Because, and I've mentioned this, in this year's best actress race, she is among the oldest people, the oldest contenders to possibly get nominated. That's crazy to say because she's a young woman, she's a beautiful woman, she's uh 46 years old. That's not old in this category for best actors, it is because uh June Squibb, Julia Roberts are contenders that would fit the bill of being actresses over 50 to get nominated. They're not contenders or they're not serious contenders because their movies are poorly received, and in some cases they're very poorly at the box office. She's one of the very few contenders here who can at least be pat who can at least be in her 40s. You know, um uh Cynthia Revo and Amanda Seafried are have similar age, I think in 39. Um Renata Rinesta Rhines and Jesse Buckley are of a similar age, I believe, in their mid-30s. We need some older blood here. We can't have a list of only 30-year-olds. That doesn't make any sense. That doesn't happen for a reason. We should have some veteran presence here. By veteran, I mean older actors, and the best you've got is um Rose Byrne for if a head like that kick you. I know there's a case to be made, and we'll maybe we'll talk about this movie next, um, uh for Lucy Lou um in uh Rosemead, but that's a film that's being released by Vertical, doesn't have a trajectory of getting into the Oscars, A24 does. So, you know, I think it helps. Her age helps her in this particular scenario because she's one of the oldest character, one of the oldest actors to be able to possibly get nominated this year, and this best actress list needs that, it's lacking.

SPEAKER_03: 2:36:31

I mean, I think that's certainly a point. Um, I guess I was sort of sort of alluding to the idea that at one point, you know, actors who accumulated a tremendous reputation, a tremendous filmography, they tend to be nominated. And I'm I'm thinking of Isabel Hooper. I'm thinking about Charlotte Rampling, but they're certainly nominated at the advanced stages of their career, you know what I mean? Not necessarily um their peak work, um, but there just comes a point where you know Daniel Craig at some point, if he's not in a best picture movie, will at some point be nominated just because he will there will come a moment where you're gonna say I it's this it's do or die, basically, for me to nominate Daniel Craig right now. And so I'm wondering if that's what's gonna end up happening for Rose. Um I do think you bring up a very good point, and I think that we haven't heard the last of that storyline. Um, and I agree with you, like I I don't like a list of best actress that could that could skew too young, and that's where I think most people are at right now. Um Roseburn helps. I I actually think, and we'll talk about it more as you know they start ramping up the campaign for their release in late December, I think. But I certainly think that Lucy Lou and Rosemead is someone that most people are sleeping on, and that I would advise them strongly not to. Um, but yeah, I think that my only concern with Roseburne is that the film, not unlike Train Dreams, you know, it could really need it really needs so much care from some element that's gonna influence the vote. And I I if they don't show up, then I don't know what chance she has. Right. Even then, I'm thinking about like Tony Collette for Hereditary, right? Right, right, but I think another A24 movie.

SPEAKER_02: 2:38:22

I think that's the thing. I I think that Gotham showed that the independent community is going to show up for her. They have to show and it's going to show up for the movie.

SPEAKER_03: 2:38:30

I mean they have to, and then even then and I and I I agree with you.

SPEAKER_02: 2:38:34

I think she stands to be one of the prime contenders to win a lot of these, you know, coveted uh critics groups for best actress. So I mean, all those things I think will will be top of mind for uh people in the in these circles to want to keep her in the conversation.

SPEAKER_03: 2:38:49

Well, I worry about her, I have to say. Um, well, then let's talk about the last film for uh this week's episode, um, which is one that I'm really happy we're ending on because it's one that I was really happy with and I was really excited about and I had a lot of energy, and I think is also sort of frustrating because it has just been so mishandled from the beginning, um, which is uh Amazon MGM's release of HEDA, right? Um, which features a fantastic Tessa Thompson performance and is uh a beautiful production, um, shot by Sean Bobbitt, great costumes, production design, music by Hilder, from most people most people recognize from Joker, um, who won an Oscar for Joker. Um, this is a tremendously well uh well-made film. Nia DeCosto, writer-director. Um, if you're a fan of hers from Candyman, I certainly was. Um totally totally lives up to you know what you would expect her her to do with her filmmaking skills. Um and so it's kind of frustrating to know that this film got the back burner treatment and that after the hunt was opening the New York Film Festival, that's kind of you know upsetting. Um and it's sort of interesting too because HETA, when it premiered in Toronto, was more polarized. It was like was a Metacritic was like barely 60, like 61, 62. And it had a good bounce back as more um critics started watching the film, um, which was really, really great to see. Um, I think it's a strong film. I think it's just a victim of the way it's being positioned by um its uh studio, which is Amazon MGM, but I don't think that we've heard the last on Tessa Thompson, and I certainly don't think that we've heard the last on Nina Haas, who did a fantastic job in a uh gender-reversed role for Loveboard, um, just did a great job. And so to me, this is a film that not only that I enjoyed, but I don't I think people may be sleeping on it um in categories like actress, supporting actress, costume design was great. Um, so I would definitely keep my eye on it. Um, and it's certainly one of the films that I enjoyed um the most from Among This List.

SPEAKER_02: 2:41:08

Right. Um, I thought it was a good film, very good film. Um, I think Nina DeCosta takes a very, you know, uh iconic text and she makes it her own. Um, I was really impressed by that. I was impressed by the visuals and uh Sean Bobbit's cinematography was I think very ornate, very alluring. Um, the music um as well. I think Tessa Thompson is great. I think Nina Haas is spectacular. You know, I think Nina Haas is, you know, one of our greatest actresses alive. Um if you see almost anything, but she can do absolutely anything. And if you've seen her work, you know, um throughout the years, um you know that already. Um there's a reason why Kate Blanchett says, you know, you're the actress that I want to be. Um because she's just that amazing. And she gets a killer role here, a killer role here. Absolutely. Um, and uh she's uh you know uh blazing whenever she's on screen. And I think Tessa Thompson does a terrific job of you know really committing to the part. Um uh I do think that, you know, because of the part that she plays, you know, it runs the risk of you know rubbing a little bit aggressively. Um for yeah, for for for the public, you know, because she's sort of you know she's kind of an antagonist in a way. Um, but again, that the text is so um so well known that you know that about this, uh, about this story, um, had a gobbler. And I think they're very strong performances, and I think uh Nia DeCosta really kind of shows her her muscle here as a director. Um I think all of this becomes an issue in that Amazon chose the wrong horse for after the hunt. After the hunt got the Venice premiere, after the hunt got the New York opening film, and Hedda was left with scraps and it just got Toronto premiere. Um, it was in theaters for less than a week and it went right into prime, it really got the secondary treatment from Amazon. It was clear, you know, who they're prioritizing, they just prioritized the wrong horse. And so I just feel like as much as I would love to see Tessa Thompson and Nina Haas factor into the acting categories, and I do think that if somehow voters were to see the film, that could be a reality. I think there's already been too much damage done by Amazon MGM to make it a secondary horse, that that's gonna be an issue. That's gonna be difficult. I think it's a completely legitimate take. Um, it's gonna be difficult for voters to prioritize it, it's gonna be difficult for voters to see it. Um uh I don't know that Amazon would or is even planning to make a 180 and switch all their resources onto um HETA. It doesn't look that way with the recent news of the Gotham Award for After the Hunt. Kind of feels like in the contract, they're supposed to push it, so they have to. Um, and so I think that HETA might be a victim to that. Um, and I don't know if it can overcome that. I don't know if it can, you know, survive that. Um uh, you know, being this, you know, like I said, second horse that's not gonna get the tender love and care that it needs.

SPEAKER_03: 2:44:22

I think what's interesting is after seeing After the Hunt is that I kind of pegged in, and we talked about in one of our previous episodes. To me, After the Hunt is a film that gets nominated for nothing. Um, but I mean, like on the way to zero Oscar nominations, it will also get zero nominations. So I think some people are still holding out to the Julia Roberts actress drama. I don't see that happening. Um I think Tessa Thompson is in a good position to maybe get her first Globe nomination and maybe even her first SAG nomination for this role.

SPEAKER_02: 2:44:52

It's true that she hasn't been on her first tag, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 2:44:54

And and because it is such a coveted, such a beloved, such a studied and admired text, I think that really helps her. And then I think that Nina Haas, because the role has been sort of reinvented and you know, they give it such a fresh spin, and she's an amazing actor with a tremendous career, that she can she's uh gonna join her with for those nominations. I wouldn't be surprised at all, but to me, the sort of the sort of explosion waiting to happen is that I don't know, there's something about this movie that I feel could do really well at BAFTA. Um yeah, um, I don't know if it's just the involvement of Nina Haas, but I would really not sleep on this film. Um and I think that those actors, those particular actors, are in a position now in their career where it would not surprise me that they've, you know, uh uh accrued enough esteem from their peers to finally break through.

SPEAKER_02: 2:46:08

That that's what's frustrating about this is that on paper, they make perfect sense. On paper, we need that five that fifth spot for actress. Tessa Thompson has been working for a very long time, and she's certainly in the caliber of in the class of actor where they're aware of her, they're aware of her talent, they like her choices, um, they like the career that she's building, they're gonna be happy to nominate her. Uh, Nina Haas is, you know, one of the good one of the greatest German actresses um who's yet to even receive an Academy Award nomination. Um, and I'm sure there are people internationally and domestically who would jump at the chance to nominate her for an Oscar for an acting award. Um, and so on paper, she would make perfect sense in the supporting actress category, a category that, by the way, I might add is very volatile, but also is missing a key thing, which is a period piece. Those period pieces tend to do very well in this category. Um, and we have limited options here, you know, between Marty Supreme, Kiss of the Spider-Woman, HETA, that's about it. Oh, uh sinners, possibly, if you count that, because it's also fantasy, maybe not. Um, a period piece tends to get into supporting actress, at least. Um, and right now we're missing that, you know. So both of those contenders would be would make perfect sense to fill in those spots, an actress and supporting actress, and for them to get it together.

SPEAKER_03: 2:47:35

Yeah. But will enough voters see it? That's my big question. I think that's my thing, is that if you just get that small group of people who are passionate about Nina Haas, what they've done with the role and what she delivers, like that's the kind of thing that would have been an absolute slam dunk of a nomination in 2014. You know what I mean? Had it been handled appropriately before the streaming age and it had been handled by Fox Search Light or Focus Features, it would have been an absolute slam dunk of a nomination. Um, and I still feel that as a voter, as an audience member, you're going to see that performance and feel that. I think it's very much like you said, the question is, are you going to put the screener on?

SPEAKER_04: 2:48:21

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 2:48:21

That's it. And so if Tessa Thompson, even if she's by herself, can get them to put the screener on because she was a Golden Globe nominee, because there are six spots, and because actress is divided between two categories, if she's able to do that, I really do feel like voters are going to be massively compelled by what Nina Haas has done and HEDA.

SPEAKER_02: 2:48:43

You know, I would love that. I would love recognition for both of those actresses. But again, I just I don't know if we can survive or if they can survive the you know debacle that has been Amazon choosing after the hunt. Um crazy. So I don't know. Uh again, on paper, they would solve everything. They would solve the best actress race and they would solve the best supporting actress race. Right. Can they get there? I don't know. I like the pair. I like the pair. Oh, 100%. 100%. Yeah. Tessa Thompson is someone like Paul Meskell. They're aware and they want, or Michael B. Jordan, they're aware, they want to nominate them. Yes. And also that's a kind of cool symmetry because they're co-stars from Googler's Creed. Exactly, kind of. Ina Haas might have been close with Tar. People are aware she's, you know, uh uh uh an iconic actress um uh from Europe. Um they they're gonna want to nominate people like that, actors like that of that caliber. It's just can can they survive the fumble from after the hunt? Um, so you know, I hope I hope for them and they would solve everything, but I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03: 2:49:53

Well, I certainly would keep an eye out for them, and I think as the year starts to come to a close, I think you may see both those names, you know, show up higher on people's lists than we're giving them credit for. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 2:50:05

And so, you know, um, we're gonna try hard to make an episode for next week because uh Wicked is coming out and we have a lot of thoughts about Wicked and where it could land. Hopefully we'll be seeing it soon. Marty Supreme continues to get traction from people who are seeing it and feel that it's a bona fide contender. Um, and uh we'll also have updates on our predictions, so be on the lookout for that. Um follow us on our Twitter at Academy Anon um and visit us on our website at uh framesandflickr.com. Both of them are listed on the cover art for the podcast. And be sure to check us out, please. All right, thank you so much for joining us until next time. It's been a pleasure. The music on this episode, entitled Cool Cats, was graciously provided by Kevin McLeod and Incompitech.com, licensed under Creative Commons by attribution three point zero. HTTP calling forward slash forward slash Creative Commons.org forward slash licenses forward slash by forward slash three point zero.

SPEAKER_03: 2:51:20

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