Academy Anonymous
An invaluable, unparalleled and only partly-delusional resource for any cinephiles and Oscar-addicts forever obsessing about whether their favorite films, performances and artists will survive another grueling Oscar season.
Join us on our noble (futile! compulsive!) mission to track the contenders, mourn the flop-aroonis, cut-down the winners, champion the over-looked and generally forecast the state of the race with “100% accuracy" (results may vary).
Need your daily Oscar fix? We got you covered.
(But seriously, consider getting some real help when all this is over… this ain’t healthy.)
Academy Anonymous
Oscar Season 2025-2026: Oscar Nominees Revealed; Unpacking the Year's Biggest Surprises and Snubs; History Making SINNERS; Clues from the BAFTA and WGA nominees
| Follow us: @AcademyAnon |
| Visit our website for Oscar Predictions: FramesAndFlicker.com |
On this episode of ACADEMY ANONYMOUS:
- The Academy announces the nominees for the 98th Oscars!
- How ACADEMY ANONYMOUS fared in the Oscar pool
- Warner Bros. in a league all their own this year - racks up 30 nominations between SINNERS, ONE BATTLE AFTER ANOTHER and WEAPONS
- ONE BATTLE AFTER ANOTHER is PTA's biggest Oscar success with 13 nomination (!) but it can't stop SINNERS from making Oscar history
- Academy sets the stage for a final showdown between ONE BATTLE AFTER ANOTHER and SINNERS - is an upset brewing??
- Chloé Zhao makes history in the Best Director category
- A24's MARTY SUPREME makes Josh Safdie a 4-time Oscar nominee
- Neon's SENTIMENTAL VALUE completes comeback to score 9 nominations
- A lukewarm reception for international titles including THE SECRET AGENT and IT WAS JUST AN ACCIDENT
- Emma Stone and Yorgos Lanthimos revive BUGONIA at the 11th hour
- How Kate Hudson in SONG SUNG BLUE edged out Chase Infiniti in ONE BATTLE AFTER ANOTHER
- Ethan Hawke and Micheal B. Jordan crack Best Actor, but Joel Edgerton gets left out in the cold again
- Plan B's Oscar muscle steers summer popcorn flick F1 into Best Picture, but will the company regret it in the long run?
- How we correctly predicted a BLUE MOON surprise in Original Screenplay
- AVATAR: FIRE AND ASH crashes Best Costume Design
- The "shocking" Oscar shutout that industry pundits refused to see... and ACADEMY ANONYMOUS laid out the breadcrumbs for.
- PLUS - the snubs and surprises we saw coming (Paul Mescal, Delroy Lindo) and those we hoped wouldn't come to pass (Jafar Panahi)
- Cross referencing Oscar nominees with nominations for the British Film Academy's BAFTA awards, the Writers Guild, and the ACE Editors Guild
Hey everyone, and welcome to a new episode of the Academy Anonymous podcast. Um, we are tracking all the latest updates on the Oscar race. And of course, this is a big episode because we finally have Oscar nominations. Phase one officially came to a close last Thursday with the reveal. Um, I am your host, Joseph. And I'm Jules.
SPEAKER_04:And before we get started, just remember, as always, to check out our official website, framesandflicker.com, and our Twitter at Academy Anon. Both of those are listed on the cover art for the podcast. And uh yeah, we finally reached a uh, you know, the peak of the mountain, so to speak. As we mentioned in the last episode, we feel like the funnest part of this uh this uh Oscar season and predicting the eventual winners and nominees is predicting the nominees that part absolutely is the funnest part. After that, it just feels like we're kind of crawling towards the end. Yeah. And a lot of the winners are kind of obvious.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's a lot more fun when you're like choosing, you know, when all year you're narrowing down a pool of hundreds of movies into what is essentially around 40, maybe mid-30s, um, and you're sort of debating which are gonna be those films. Now that we have the final list of 30, phase two enters. Um, it's gonna get, you know, the stakes uh are a little higher for the people who made the cut and a lot of people who are waiting to see what the results are.
SPEAKER_04:But I would say that there the stakes are higher for the people who made who are actually nominated, but they're lower for everybody else. Right, right.
SPEAKER_02:But at the same time, like I wonder how high the stakes are for a couple of other for a couple of movies that understand that the nomination was the win. So for example, it was wonderful to see Train Dreams nominated. Is Train Dreams really expecting a win anywhere? I don't know.
SPEAKER_04:I feel like, you know, from our limited experience, or you know, we've been in certain rooms, I feel like it's obvious that people when they get nominated, there is this kind of, you know, Judy Dent one time described it as, you know, you're kind of like on cloud nine for like a month. You know, I think there's this, I'm gonna I'm gonna use the term delusion, but I don't mean that in an offensive manner. I mean that as in you're so enveloped in the moment that I think part of you, a big part of you is really understanding that you have a one in five chance to win, and that's not nothing. Yeah. And so I think a lot of people start approaching this big ceremony with serious thought as to, you know, maybe I maybe I will win, maybe I can win.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, as far as phase two goes, someone, someone who was nominated made a commentary recently, I think within the last five years, about this idea where after you get nominated, you understand that, you know, the odds aren't in your favor, you know, no one necessarily predicting you or calling you the front runner, and yet, and yet there's enough people in your inner circle, you know, and and enough circumstances around you where the possibility starts to creep into your mind little by little by little, um, so that no matter what, you s you sort of give your yourself a fighting chance and you wind up disappointed when you lose uh on the night of, um, which is kind of interesting because uh, you know, logically it makes sense. You officially now have a one in five chance most of the time, unless your best picture, it's a one in five chance, right? Um, and so those are those are fighting odds, right? But if you I think everyone else who's sort of looking at it from the outside who is not involved in that situation and is more removed from it, can sort of understand after these nominations, and the race is really between A and B, or there is no race, it's it's it's going to be a walk.
SPEAKER_04:Right. But I also think there's you know, there was some conversation leading up to the nominations where Amanda Safried had said that the nomination is really the thing that's the important part, not the win. And then uh coupled that with a few things that you know there was also a press release or there was also some news that Melissa Leo had. I was going to say just that that Melissa Leo had come out saying that the Oscar really didn't do much for her for her career. In fact, it did the opposite. It was not good. Yeah, she said it was not good. Right, exactly. And so, you know, in a way, I just want to mention that the sort of uh, you know, denounment that we're feeling, you know, the the high of trying to get as many predictions right. And then now we've got the nominees, okay. Well, you know, this person will win and this movie will win, etc. It's less exciting. You know, I I I understand what Amanda meant because I firmly, wholeheartedly believe that in this whole Oscar season awards game, the nomination is the win. Yeah. It's the only thing that matters. It is the thing that people remember. It is sort of, you know, now your name has to forever be branded with Academy Award, nominee, et cetera, et cetera, whoever you are. Um, and you know, the the I feel like that's really the award because in fact there tends to be an antithetical sort of thing that happens when you do win. Your career kind of stalls. You know, you don't propel and go to these new, newer heights. In fact, more often than not, your career just kind of stalls. Look at Adrian Brody, he was on top of the world uh last year around this time. And we haven't heard from Adrian Brody since. You know, and so you know, I do think there are people that bucked a trend every now and then. Um, but like for example, Jennifer Lawrence, but even her, you know, at her peak, you know, there was a moment that quickly came where there was a denounce and there was, you know, less work, less people are watching her movies, less excitement about her the role she was taking in the films she was taking. And in fact, I feel like she had to do a reset to kind of, you know, revive her career in a way, as opposed to just coasting out, oh, well, I'm an Oscar winner. That's not enough. Look at Hallie Berry, that's not enough.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Um, and so I really understand what Amanda means. I think she's absolutely 100% right. I wish more people would talk about it. And I think if more people embrace that, it would be, you know, uh a healthy thing. Because I think less people would be coveting this Academy Award win because it really means not that much. Right. It's this big parade, you know, of you know, celebrations and and whatnot. But it ultimately comes down to, you know, well, you win the award and then what happens? Yeah. Not much. Yeah. You know, you know what I'm saying? It's this weird, like, devoting the entire year to, you know, see who's gonna end up being on that podium, and then after that, just crickets.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you know, like I, you know, I was gonna mention the Melissa Leo interview. Um, she's a wonderful actor, um, and she is a very deserving winner for the fighter, in my opinion. Um, even if she wasn't everyone's, you know, a personal choice. Um, you know, there's a sense of like the reality is to a large degree it's all downhill from here. You know, like this is the top of the mountain. So now the there is no more mountain, so we can just go down. Right. Um, that's one way of looking at it. I mean, I like what you said. The nomination surpasses the win. A nomination is bigger and more important and more significant than a win. I don't know how many people are gonna remember that Adrian Brody won twice. Um, I'm gonna make I'm gonna say something controversial, which is, and then there are actors who have never been nominated, may never be nominated, and that I think is also more significant than a win. So, for example, I think it's more important to be Glenn Close, an eight-time nominee, than Adrian Brody, a two-time winner. I think that's a good one. I think it's as yeah, I think it's as important for Amanda Safree to be a one-time nominee than for Adrian Brody to be a two-time winner. And then I think there are the cases, and there are several, I think, throughout history, like Jeff Daniels, who is not a nominee, who may never be a nominee, which is crazy, which is absolutely nuts, and he is a more accomplished actor than Adrian Brody. Yeah, he has a more enviable filmography, has been involved in a wider spectrum of projects. And I think at the end, fans and members of the industry and his peers, they have an admiration for him that maybe he doesn't have an Oscar, but that doesn't that doesn't keep that from existing.
SPEAKER_04:Right. But you know, this we've talked about this in previous episodes, the the the inconsistency the inconsistency of the Academy Awards, you know, to have certain people have one nomination, a couple nominations, five nominations, and then you have a list of very talented actors who don't even have one nomination just yet.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_04:And um, and they've had decades in the industry. It's really, I don't know, it it can't help but feel bittersweet. Absolutely. You know, you look at the list of nominees, and I'm sure you're happy for many of them. I'm sure that people listening to us are fans of certain films and certain actors, and so you're happy for many of them. But when you take stock of the industry and how many people have yet to be recognized, yeah, even once and have decades in this industry, it's kind of sad.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. I I a hundred percent agree with you. Um, and some people are gonna hide behind or some critics or some people who disagree with us are gonna hide behind, well, it's really not about the actor, it's about the performance. Oh, that's bullshit. No, that's that's spin, you know. It really is spin. And there's a lot of we you can see some of that spin here this year. There's always it's never just about the performance. Because if it was just about the performance, they would um ban all campaigns, right? Right, right. And no one would even care about a narrative, and it would be such a secret ballot that nobody knows, nobody would attend any event or you know, call out any movie they like or any um uh colleague that they're supporting. You're not gonna have you know Christopher Nolan interviewing Ryan Kugler or Inaru Tu uh interviewing uh the Safety brothers. So absolutely not. It's not just about the performance and it's not just about the film, it is very much about the pageantry and the spectacle and the circus of it, you know, um the narrative and the framing of it. So that has you know everything to do with everything, you know.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and and also I want people to understand that this machine starts early. Yeah. You know, these uh distribution companies, these production companies, they know what they've got. Absolutely. And they're already, you know, uh they're already planning their awards coverage, their award run, their awards campaign, all in the effort to get to a very particular goal. And everything that they do from inception to the end is calculated. Yeah, calculated to reach a specific goal.
SPEAKER_02:100%. Certain films um are assigned that duty and they're meant to carry them out. And sometimes it blows in their face, you know.
SPEAKER_04:Also, but also sometimes they surprise. Absolutely. You know, so I'm not gonna tell you that Warner Brothers knew that weapons was gonna be a thing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I can't tell you that, you know, the idea behind green lighting Bad Max Fury Road was to score 10 Oscar nominations and be not as best picture. Right. You know, exactly.
SPEAKER_04:So that does happen, but for a lot of cases, and dare I say most cases, yeah, you know, the Marty Supreme, this started, you know, early, early, not when it premiered or, you know, not even, I mean, dare I say, some of these things start in pre-production. Right. You know, you already know what you're aiming for when you're making the film. They have everything to do with the green light, right? 100%. Right. And you know, like you were saying, you know, we're kind of philosophizing right now, but this is very interesting to me. You know, it's so surreal, it's odd to have to to base your to have these huge and even small studios and production companies, distribution studios kind of care so much about running this awards race and having an awards contender and getting to the end. And again, all of it is just pageantry. You know, it's not even that maybe in the heyday you would, you know, get a quote unquote Oscar bump in the box office. But the box office right now is on its, you know, yeah, you know, last legs. Right. So you can't even say that that's one of the big prizes at the end of the road. So it's all just to participate in pageantry.
SPEAKER_02:And at the same time, I'm not sure you can argue that it's for legacy, right? Anymore. Because I mean, what Warner Brothers gets how many nominations between, I think what someone at someone added them up, right? Um, and it's it's leading all the uh studios by far.
SPEAKER_04:Oh no.
SPEAKER_02:But you know, that has nothing to do with the fact that the shareholders, you know, they're they're looking at the Netflix deal and saying, yeah, I think that's that's the next move. So like legacy feels like again, it that's that's more spin.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. So like there's a part of this that feels just, you know, it's just odd. You know, let's let's let's devote so much time and resources and energy to this pageantry, and then it's over. Okay, let's do it again. And and what did you gain per se? Right. I don't know. You know, I'm not sure. You know, maybe Warner Brothers is an exception because they've had such a tremendous year, but other film studios, you know, the financial gain that they get from their Oscar movies doesn't really compare to the financial gains that they got from their bigger other, you know, non-Oscar movies.
SPEAKER_02:Certainly, yeah, all the all the conglomerates, you know, they're they're not necessarily seeing these Oscar movies as the engine that's gonna take their company into profitability, right? And then at the same time, you know, Warner Brothers had a great year this year. They had an okay year last year because Dune really underperformed. Um Joker Folio do Joker, yeah, Joker Folio Doo blew up in their face in every respect.
SPEAKER_04:Speaking of Inception, that was made to be so when something like that happened, that's why it's so newsworthy. Yeah, because from Inception, it was made to be Joker 2 lands 20 nominations.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. Um, but then you know it ebbs and flows because Searchlight had a great year because they had a complete unknown and they had a real pain, and movie had a really breakthrough year. Yeah, and where were they this year? They're nowhere. Nothing, nothing, right? Um, because they can't sustain all the resources dedicated to to getting that to sort of you know climbing the mountain, quote unquote.
SPEAKER_04:But they don't have the infrastructure. They don't have the infrastructure.
SPEAKER_02:But Warner Brothers has that. Well, even War Brothers that has the infrastructure, they had a a not good, uh not a great year last year. Look at Universal, right? Universal last year was coming off the heels of Oppenheimer. They they launched a massive campaign for that in 03. They were able to surprise with Wicked in 04 and in 24, right? Yeah, and get those 10 nominations. And this year, what happened?
SPEAKER_04:Well, this year they said well, they said they were gonna coast. They said we're gonna we're gonna do everything for part one, but we're gonna split into two. That way we get, you know, do half the work, but get twice the rewards. And get twice the nominations.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we get twice the nominations and it blew up in their face.
SPEAKER_04:It totally blew up in their face. Um 100%. It ebbs and flows, but you know, all this stuff, you know, I hope that you know, those who are listening aren't like bored by these kind of things, but they're they're very fascinating to me. You know, you know what it is? It's like to devote so much of yourself, of your time, of your energy to this pageantry that really doesn't give you all that much. It's it's it's in a way, all you want is to be welcomed into the room. Right. You know, I feel like I could write a dissertation on this, and it would be pretty good. You know, you just want to be like human beings, I just want to feel included. Right. You just want to be amongst the best, right? Quote unquote, you know, the best, right? You know, whoever's in charge of labeling the best. Right. Um, you know, because that's even odd in and of itself when we're talking about art. Um, it's just to me, it's always felt odd.
SPEAKER_02:But I do think, you know, from our perspective, we speak on it and we analyze it and we participate with it in the sense that, you know, it is historical nonetheless, you know, nonetheless. Right. Um, it it does have an element that is worth dissecting and analyzing for for broader for for you know writing the broader story of the industry and the American industry. And I won't dismiss that the awards also have this ability or this um this they've had this position right in the industry and in culture, popular culture, where uh the film that they're tending to reward lately, and sometimes this happens. It depends, I think, on the situ on the circumstances that we're living in. And and right now we're living in in pretty dire circumstances. So the movies that they're singling out and the movies that they ultimately give the win to, they're meant to reflect what the industry is in pursuit of, right? Whether it's Oppenheimer or Honora, and this year it should very well be between Sinners or Win Battle, right? Just it's emblematic of where the industry hopes to go, right? Where where the voters and members of the industry would want the industry to go. Right. And that's that's an interesting thing, right? Right, because it's very different when you see, for example, in a country for all men win, than when you see a green book win, and when you see the King's Speech win.
SPEAKER_05:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and like I said, I do think a lot of it has to do with the circumstances we're living in. Um, the same thing with when it when a country for all men wins in 2007, the circumstances in the US were very different than they were when, you know, um, for example, um, President Obama was in the White House and and you had um significant wins for films like um uh Twelve Years a Slave or Birdman, um, a lot of independent films. Um and so right now in the time we're living in, I do think that this is a moment for the industry to say this is what cinema can say about what's going on right now, and this is um what what part cinema will play in in the history that it of the United States and of the country, I'm sorry, and of the world that is being written right now. This is this is the the part that cinema will play, right? Will be recorded, you know, in the history books as.
SPEAKER_04:Right, 100%. And so, you know, it's uh it's a weird feeling every time with the Academy Awards for us. And and and you were saying, you know, there are these merits to, you know, analyzing them, and also it's addictive. Yeah, you know, that's why there's a lot of people playing this quote unquote game. Yeah. Because it's addictive to like have this Oscar history and to see the patterns and the threads and to try to guess, you know, what uh a group of people are going to be selecting as the best.
SPEAKER_02:And to hope that they they celebrate a film that you believe deserves recognition. Deserves recognition and they maybe you you hope is where the industry is gonna go. Right, right.
SPEAKER_04:Right. But it's never a good idea, you know. We've been burned in the past hard. You know, when we were younger, we were more naive, we were more idealistic. You know, it's never a good idea to attach whatever the Academy Awards labels as, you know, worthy of recognition, as, you know, a profound say on whether that movie is actually worthy or not. There are several films that would not get nominated, um, that would never have been nominated, are never going to be nominated, that are are never going to be nominated, that are, that are, you know, equal, that are as uh potent and impactful as the ones that did, or in some cases even more so.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, a hundred percent.
SPEAKER_04:You know, so yeah, you know, we were young, we would we would have the Oscar nomination day, and sometimes it was a real heartbreaker.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Because like I said, there's so much about this that is not about the art. Right. It's about who's in your corner, who are the people propping you up. If you're fortunate enough to have certain resources, and other films and other artists and other performances and other filmmakers don't have those resources. Right. So they don't have, they don't get to shine in those platforms. Right. You know, and I think you know, as as you do that, you do this long enough, you realize, you know, yeah, it's it's an it's always a mixed pack.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I I I I agree.
SPEAKER_04:Um oh, so uh before we get into the nominations, we'll just say that, you know, um, this was posted on our Twitter, but we ranked number 47 on Gold Derby, which is not bad. I mean, our goal was to be top 10, top twenty. You know, we have uh never gotten to top ten, top twenty, but that's our big goal. I'm glad that we're in the top fifty and uh Uh we Yeah, we cracked the top 50, which was nice. Right. We got 100 riot out of 125 categories. Certainly when you're hearing the nominees being read out, you're kicking yourself thinking, why didn't I go with my gut? Why didn't I or why didn't I think about this a little bit harder? And then there are other nominees nominations that you would never have, I would never have put avatar for cosmic design. No one in this universe. Whoever got avatar for cosmic design right deserves the trophy. Let's give them the trophy. They deserve the roster. Um and so and so, you know, so I don't kick myself about that.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:But you know, every you know, we'll we'll talk about it, but but it's like, damn, why didn't I listen to my gut? Or why didn't I, you know, take seriously what what you know Joseph said the other day. Um but there are certain things that we were sort of sniffing out that ended up, you know 100%. And I, you know, you kind of want bragging rights, you kind of want, you know, uh you feel vindicated, you know. So, and we'll we'll be talking about that by Darwin Lindo. Hello, we talked about it, you know, people being surprised about the Aaron Grande snub. We talked about that, you know, uh films that were just gonna be gonna underperform and they actually performed better. Yeah, we talked about that, and so you know, kind of, you know, you want that that ability to say, well, you know, I said that, you know, very few people were saying that. Um, but well, whatever. The point is 47, not too bad, considering that we were there was a total group of 10,776. Right. So we were number seven, we were number 47 out of about 10,800 people. And I will say, like I think that's the top 0.05%, I think.
SPEAKER_02:And I will say, like, I haven't gone and like looked at the numbers or anything, but our 47th spot comes with a bunch of points, like I think 80,000 points or something. Yeah, which I will say is obviously not important, although it helped us rank. I think it should be more important. It should be more important. It helped us rank on the higher end of all the individuals that tied for 100 out of 125. Um, but I will also say that it um it illustrates that we were pretty early on some of these contenders. Which is the first time.
SPEAKER_04:Because if we hadn't been if we hadn't been early, we wouldn't be getting 80,000 because we got that 80,000 because we had a lot of really big big contenders that made it to the end and we got them early at 100 to 1. Yeah. You know, Rose Byrne, we got her at 100 to 1 people. Yeah. You know, um, ever since we saw the film at Sundance. Benito Toro, yeah, absolutely. Benito Toro before he became like, oh my god, Benicio Toro was winning every precursor, every critics group, we had him a hundred to one. Right, right. You know, before people started thinking about Frankenstein for sound design, we had that 100 to 1. You know, we had trained dreams and best picture 100 to 1.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So I mean, you know, you're right. I am very happy. Actually, I think I'm more happy about that than the 47. You know, but I wish that that counted for more. You know, don't you think? It's not fair.
SPEAKER_02:It it would be great if you get a couple of bonus points for that, but um at least it helps in the tiebreaker. So we did rank 47th because of that. If not, if if we had gotten less points, we might have gotten a little bit lower. Um, but I do think I I like to mention that because I I I think that's a an aspect that I always do. Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_04:100%.
SPEAKER_02:Um, so let's start going through the nominees so we can post our reaction. So this is our Oscar nominations post-mortem. Um, we'll go through the nominees. We have the benefit now of having some additional nominations come out, including the British Academy, which was absent, so it would not play a factor in our ability to um predict who the Oscar nominees were. Looking at the nominees today, we can see that there were some important hints, maybe that um could have helped a lot of people.
SPEAKER_04:If the BAFTA had come out with enough time before the Oscars, we would have gotten more right.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we would I think it would have tipped off a lot more people in terms of um what the potential were for surprises. And snubs. Um, and again, uh hats off to anyone who was able to pick up on the surprises, um, even without that. Yeah. Um then we'll we'll also mention where we went a little bit astray, what we got right.
SPEAKER_04:Um but let's start with, you know, before we get into the bigger categories, let's start with the ghettoized categories.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I was gonna say before we do that, uh, you know, because as we'll go through the categories, maybe it gets a little bit washed out, but I think the big headlines were Warner Brothers gets 16 nominations for centers. That's a new record. A new record.
SPEAKER_04:And then the record was 14, and centers didn't just break it by getting 15, it broke it by getting it, by getting 16.
SPEAKER_02:And it ended up getting two categories that you and I left it out of. Other people were predicting it. Um, but I don't think I think it got an eye for essentially everything it could have got a nominated for. Yeah, um, the one thing missing, sadly, was Miles Caden for the second song nomination, maybe. Um, but it was a spectacular day for Sinners. But then Warner Brothers then gets the second most nominations for one battle after another.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Well, we will I will say that we predicted that correctly because we predicted that one battle would get 13. Right. And we predicted that Sinners would get 14.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um that said we were we were missing one one battle character, uh, one battle uh category that kind of swabbed at the end of very surprising to us. Um, but so then that's a bit a massive headline, right? Um and and they also get weapons in with just one. So between those two, um excuse me, between those three films, they walk out with um 30 nominations, which is I think really, really impressive. I have to go and research if it's unheard of potentially. Um it certainly reminds me of the Merrimax years where they dominated with, you know, remember the hours and gangs in New York and Frida and Chicago. And so it's in it's a really impressive haul, and they definitely broke some of their own um records that we thought they were not gonna be able to accomplish earlier this year.
SPEAKER_04:Right. And I also say that it's really, and people have mentioned it online. It's ironic. It's ironic that it has such a historic year, you know, or contemplating, you know, selling to Netflix.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I I as they're battling, you know, how much they're gonna get paid to share, the board members, um or the shareholders, excuse me, you know, this is this is what the voters had to say about it. Um, other big headline I think that's worth mentioning is that Wicked goes zero.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, we'll be talking about that. You know, I want to say that I think very few, maybe nobody, predicted that Wicked would get zero, but Academy Anonymous was one of the very, very, very few um outlets that even contemplated it for the lowest number. I think three. I don't think anyone had it below three.
SPEAKER_02:We were being very, very aggressive with our with our push for this film gets three, and and that's that's that's the top.
SPEAKER_04:And like I said, I you know, I don't know how many people got I don't think anyone got zero based on Gold Derby at least. Right. But I I I would I would find it hard to believe that there were a ton of people that got anything lower than three. Right. You know, and I want to say that maybe we were amongst the only people who predicted it for three.
SPEAKER_02:And I'm gonna, you know, shout out and we'll go through the categories. You want it to be even more aggressive. Yeah, I saw I thought too. Now we had seen the movie and we had already, after screening it for the first time, despite all the you know, spin that was occurring, we we and you know, we had a gut feeling that the that the prospects were not going to be very good or very bright, um, that ended up coming to fruition in the most extreme way, yeah, zero nominations. I thought to me that was one of the most um one of the biggest headlines of uh of the day. Um so I thought that was interesting. And the last thing that I think is worth mentioning is that despite all the theories um among um individuals who were tracking the race, ourselves included, it was not necessarily the most international of Oscars, and it did not take a violent shove into um becoming the most global Oscars ever. I do think there's a step forward, but it is very much a step forward that's um in keeping with their usual sort of um trajectory.
SPEAKER_04:I will say I I agree, I think that they resisted. I think that they resisted being a you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:We saw that pushback that um first became evident through the guilds. We certainly I think saw that appear. Um and there was no, I mean, I hesitate to say there was anything um incredibly egregiously shut out, but nothing did as well as some had expected, maybe as some had hoped, as some had predicted, ourselves included again. Foreign films, you mean? I f in terms of international films.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I actually think that there was one international film that did spectacularly. But even then And I think every other international film and and and that one was poised to quote unquote do terribly until it won a whole bunch of shit at the European Film Awards.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I I I to be fair, I want to say that that international film was the one that with the broadest appeal of the bunch. It was the one that won uh a bunch of awards at the European Film Awards, as you said. It it to me it doing well is not necessarily a huge step forward. Um, to me, the the the narrative or the idea this year was well, how many uh foreign films or international films can break into how many categories? So it became to me the story of can the neon five dominate the foreign film? Spoiler alert, they cannot because they didn't get all five spots. Um, and furthermore, can the neon five break into um a bunch of other major Oscar categories? And can they almost own half the list of Best Picture and spoiler alert, they did not. Yeah, they could not.
SPEAKER_04:Especially when we get to Best Picture, we saw that voters were, as we've been saying, hesitant to include more than two movies from a studio. Yeah. So instead of you know welcoming a huge, instead of as you know, welcoming more foreign films from the same studio, and instead of including you know, surprises from different studios, like you know, Sony Picture Classics, Blue Moon, they said, you know, we'll go with you know two focus, two Netflix, two neon. You know, absolutely, you know, and so in a way, I don't know, there was some excitement to possibly having the most global Academy of World.
SPEAKER_02:I was certainly excited about it.
SPEAKER_04:You know, because a lot of them were very worthy films. And then, you know, we have some movies that made it in that are highly questionable. Yeah. That people have had some issues.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Um, so let's start breaking down these categories. Um, and why don't we start with what is usually the trickiest we'll also say the ghettoized categories ghettoized categories of the academy. Um, some of the best films from all the nominees are in these categories. I will say that. Um, so if you have an opportunity to watch them, please do. Um the ones that we've seen are just wonderful.
SPEAKER_04:Um, let's start with documentary short film, you know, which I thought was particularly very strong list of uh uh of a short list. Yes, it was. Um the nominees were all the empty rooms, armed with only a camera, the life and death of Brent Renaud, Children No More were and are gone, The Devil is Busy and perfectly estrangedness.
SPEAKER_02:So a couple of interesting things to me here is number one, Gita gets her first nomination here, and she will end up getting a double nomination on the MS. I think I'm and we met her, we met her this year. Yeah, and she's she's absolutely wonderful and um made two great films. Um so it's great to see her double nominated. Question going forward will be does that become a factor in her ability to uh in the ability for uh of the perfect neighbor to win documentary features. That's gonna be interesting. Um, all the empty rooms here was expected. Um yeah camera expected. Interesting thing about this category is that I believe the New Yorker scored three mentions in the long list, failed to get a nomination. Um, and the New Yorker tends to do well here. Total no more.
SPEAKER_04:We had our great odds and we lost it.
SPEAKER_02:We had fantastic odds. We backed out at the end. Sheila Nevins is on that. Um, it's a great documentary. Perfectly estranged us. We had our doubts because it's is it too artistic? Is it too experimental? Is it too experimental?
SPEAKER_04:This went to can.
SPEAKER_02:We talked about, you know, it's you know, just you know, to to go over it again, it's just uh of some donkeys that are like in a uh Yeah, but it's I it's like I heard so what we haven't we haven't had the opportunity to see it yet. We look forward to seeing it, but we heard it's one of the most visual um documentary shorts on the list. So it was sort of great to see, I think. Oh, yeah, it was awesome. But I didn't think that they would go for something that experimental. I agree. Um, but it's a very eclectic list um with a lot of uh commentary on pertinent uh issues uh in in the country, in the world. So again, this is this list is a killer. I think we ended up going three.
SPEAKER_04:We got all the empty rooms all armed with only a camera, and the devil was busy, as did most people. Most people got those right. Yeah. Um, I wish we had stuck to our guns and kept children no more. It was a we had a debate about it. We had a debate. Yeah. All right. Uh for animated short film. Uh we did well here. We did well. We did really well here. Yeah. Uh we got four rides. Some last-minute, yeah, some last minute changes. The nominees were Butterfly, Forever Green, The Girl Who Cried Pearls, Retirement Plan, and The Three Sisters. I think no one got the Three Sisters minus maybe Ann Thompson.
SPEAKER_02:Ann Thompson got it. And I gotta say, I'm absolutely shocked to see a three sisters there. Um, we spoke on it a little bit, I think, when we predicted it. Um, I'm sorry, when we were predicting this category, um, if you want to check out that episode back before the nominations were announced. But um, the idea here for this short is that the filmmaker was responsible for a couple of films that have been nominated in this category before, including We Can't Live Without Cosmos, um, is a Russian filmmaker, Russian animator. But he did this experiment where he made this short film and started submitting it to festivals under a pseudonym, under a different name, um, supposedly under the pretext of he wanted the film to be judged solely for the film and not for the filmmaker. And he sort of I disclosed what an arduous journey it was, and that he he was surprised how how many times he got rejected. Um, but lo and behold, at least one festival um welcomed the film, and it was an Oscar qualifying festival, got himself onto the long list, revealed that story pretty late, and I thought that that would be the Achilles heel for this film, and that it would keep it from being nominated. Its nomination really surprises me because I almost thought that that sort of experiment many voters would have found distasteful. Now, I don't know how many of them um actually know about that story. I don't know if they're gonna feel differently. Now they now the story may, you know, become um more popular and and may catch on, or I don't know how many of them were taking that opportunity to nominate the film as sort of um an antithesis to what uh the filmmaker was sort of saying was his experience.
SPEAKER_04:Right. And you know, I think that's a fascinating story, and it proved to be, I think, more of an asset than anything else. Um that narrative might have helped.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, another interesting thing about this category, the New Yorker makes it in for retirement plan, um, which is which is pretty cool. Um, big hit from South by Southwest. Forever Green was the bear animated short to make it in. You were right. A lot of people thought it was gonna be Snow Bear. This is number number one on Gold Forest. Which we've seen, which we've seen. Um, and it's it's a very enjoyable film, but that we sort of pegged Snowbear as maybe being the weaker. We we had another debate like how how much bear can we have in this category? And I think we ended up signing for um Forevergreen because of the more um unique aesthetic, um, but also because the idea that a lot of people gave Snow Bear an advantage, and this is again sort of the opposite of our experience with the three sisters from the Russian uh animator uh Constantin. Um, a lot of people gave Snow Bear the advantage because it was coming from the Academy Award nominated filmmaker of Brother Bear. Yeah. And we sort of said, Well, can they really nominate him again for another bear? Yeah, um, or is that gonna be a detriment? And we cited on the detriment side. And the other thing was that, you know, from our research, you know, into like the the voting pattern recently, it's kind of shown that if you're a filmmaker with a little bit more um uh exposure to the industry and and let alone you know a nomination at the Oscars, it's gonna be a little bit harder to get this nomination in a short category.
SPEAKER_04:Right, right, 100%. Uh uh, you know, it's interesting because moving on to live action short, I would say it's the antithesis, the exact opposite of what happened to us in animated short film, because we got only two right. It was our worst category for these short films, and yet we've seen four of the five nominees. We did. How unfair is that? We did. How freaking unfair. So we have seen four of the five. The only one we're missing is Butcher Stain. Right. But we failed to predict two of those, so we only got two right. That said, again, it was a close call for us. So we've we've been on the singers ever since we've seen. So the nominee. Well, the nominees are Butcher Stane, a friend of Dorothy, Jane Austen's period drama, the singers, and two people exchanging saliva. We've seen A Friend of Dorothy, Jane Austen's period drama, the singers, and two ex and two people exchanging saliva. We have not seen Butcher Stain.
SPEAKER_02:So we um were early on the Singers after having seen it. We were really impressed with it. Oh, it's freaking amazing. My favorite short of the year. Great to see it there. Um, we were one of the earlier ones to predict it. It got a little bit of traction at the end. Some more notable people also predicted it. Um, that said I think maybe the big giveaway for some people was that Netflix bought it like right before nominations, but yet it was not it was not a favorite among the five. It wasn't. Um two people exchanging saliva. We had debates over because we said, you know, can there is there really enough room in this list for both the two people exchanging saliva and the singers? Yeah. Um they're very both playing with form.
SPEAKER_04:Yes. And they're playing with, you know, uh the way the shorts are conceptualized. Right.
SPEAKER_02:And very idiot, very idiosyncratic films um that have strong uh directorial visions. We we were we were very impressed with both of them, but we did debate. Can you really put them both on a list? I mean, this is we've seen we go to the shorts, short film Oscar Shortcase, whatever. There's some, there's some and there are some, you know, there's some there's some choices on there. There's some choices. Um, but so we were happy to see that. We had another debate, Jay Nossen's period drama. I've been high on this all year.
SPEAKER_04:I think saying, listen, do not overlook this short. I saw it, it's charming. I like it enough. I thought it would be a little bit, I don't know, a little bit green, a little bit rough around the edges for the academy, and it wasn't apparently.
SPEAKER_02:I enjoy the film immensely, and I think it's quite sharp. And I thought, if I know my academy, like I think I know my academy, this film will be listed. And lo and behold, it was listed. Yeah, um, happy for them, but also it makes sense to see it here because they like I think they like the it's I told you, you know what this gives me vibes of is was it uh Lucas and Lucas in Love or George Lucas and Love. Remember the the one that sort of plays on George Lucas Star Wars and Shakespeare and Love. And to me, I told you like they're really gonna love this. Yeah, um, because it's it's as much about you know the Jane Austen cinematic universe as it is about actual Jane Austen, right? Um, so that was uh happy to happy to see that.
SPEAKER_04:A friend of Dorothy we pegged that the sort of short featuring a known actor was gonna be a do. Yeah, there usually is one included at least, even if the short is not that great, and usually in our experience. The shorts that have a known lead are the weakest. Yeah, I agree. Um, and so it was really between a friend of Dorothy or a do. Right. And um Jennifer Lewis is in that in a do. I heard she gives a very good performance. And we thought, you know, based on what the the issues there, uh school shooting that that might be it. And I, you know, I actually like a friend of Dorothy, it's really sweet. Yeah, you know, it's not breaking new ground, but you know, I I was touched.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I'm not surprised that it's here because it reminds me of a bunch of shorts that sort of come from the UK that feature, you know, well-established actors from the UK. This one featuring Miriam Marg uh Miriam Margulis, um, but also Stephen uh uh uh uh Stephen Fry. Um so it makes sense to see it on this list. Um again, I I think one of our debates was is there enough space for the comedy of a friend of Dorothy and Jane Austen's uh period drama? And so we sort of said, I'm not sure. No, and you know, and it ended up being that there was enough space. Yeah, there was. Um, and then Butcher Stain, interestingly enough, is possibly the most dramatic short as far as we know. We haven't seen this one yet. Um, but some some uh uh commentators um were pegging it to get nominated, so that's that's good to see it here. Um, I think it's also very timely with everything that was going on with Gaza, and sort of interesting that you see Gaza um or the theme of of everything that was going on with Gaza um sort of show up in documentary short and in live action short. Yeah. Um, so yeah, that was interesting. I will say to me, this is one of the stronger batch um of films nominated for live action short film, and it it's great to see a lot of these filmmakers uh listed.
SPEAKER_04:Yes. Um moving on to documentary, the other three ghettoised categories, which you know, a select group in the international feature got to break out, you know, at least to some extent. I'm still waiting for the documentary that wouldn't be nominated for best picture.
SPEAKER_00:Or a or a or or a craft category. Oh, yeah. I mean, come on.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and so for documentary feature, I think a lot of people did bad in this category. A lot of people, but luckily we only got two wrong.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Um this was a tricky category. It was tricky, but we I spent a lot of time, guys, thinking about this category. Yeah, thinking it because I because this category is made to uh have upsets and snub favorites. And so I really was uh And so it did. I put myself to task of finding out exactly who's gonna get snubbed and who isn't. Um and I was right on on some, but not on others. Right. So the nominees were the uh the Alabama solution, Come See Me in the Good Light, Cutting Through Rocks, Mr. Nobody Against Putin, and the perfect neighbor. And I will say that the ones that were not heavily predicted were Come See Me in the Good Light, which was a favorite out of Sundance, Cutting Through Rocks, which you and I called. Right out of Sundance. We were very happy about that, and Mr. Nobody Against Putin, which you and I also called.
SPEAKER_02:It's sort of fascinating because we've been high on Mr. Nobody Against Pudin since Sundance. We thought it would be shortlisted for international film along with documentary film, it was the official selection from Denmark. But everything that's happened with Greenland over the past few weeks, I think that has really elevated the profile of the movie. And by the time that was happening, the uh international film long list was long gone, so it had missed that opportunity, but it really picked up a lot of steam in this race. Right. And so you and I are not surprised at the end that it was able to crack the five. And we're having sort of discussions right now of what is the ceiling, and we're certainly seeing a path where it could actually end up winning this prize. Right.
SPEAKER_04:And I will say you and I called, and I'm very happy about it, that there was going to be a snuff for 2,000 meters to Andrifka, which was number one on Gold Derby.
SPEAKER_02:Again, that's kind of like a snow bear thing, where like I think you're you're betting on consensus. Yeah. And not looking at the details.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, you know, um, just simply put, it's too soon to nominate him again. Right. Um, he just won. Right. And I think that has something else that went against someone out. Another documentary I thought was gonna have a good chance was was Apocalypse in the Tropics. Um, but even that was too soon. Um, they did not welcome her despite her doing well at the IDA, right? That filmmaker. Um, and so you know, I think it's a really cool list. Again, we had to have a lot of people. I was happy to see Come See Me in the Good Light. It's not typically what they go for.
SPEAKER_02:I was really surprised because they tend to overlook these more personal documentaries, these more intimate um portraits of um these usually artists. Um, and so it was great to see it there. Um, Ren White, um excuse me, Ryan White has been snub before, so not a lot of people predicted this. It's great to see it there. Um, interesting things to happen were you know Netflix was not able to get to, even though people were easily pegging um perfect neighbor to get in with cover up and Laura Poitress. Plan B couldn't get in for either Apocalypse in the Tropics or Cover Up.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um so I think I think it's an eclectic group, right? There's a lot of movies that touch on um issues going on in the US, issues going on internationally, um have multi multiple perspectives. Um you you even have something intimate, um, very intimate, like Come See Me in the Good Light. Um it's a cool list. It's it's a it's a I think it's a very good list. Yeah. Um the win I think is going to get interesting. Um yeah. But yeah, I think a lot of people, I'd be surprised if a lot of people got more than three right here.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, and then moving on to animated feature film, everyone got this right. It was the five, the the favorite five. Yes. Um, so the nominees were Arco, Elio, K-pop demon hunters, Little Amelia, the character of Rain, and Zootopia 2.
SPEAKER_02:So this was an you know, I think it was largely predicted, but I think there was a chance that the bad guys too could muster up some late momentum with mentions at, you know, the Visual Effects Society, the Annie Awards didn't come to pass. I think one of the more interesting things here is that Elio manages to get nominated. Um, and I think pretty objectively, it was not the success story that the studio wanted or that the industry needed. Um, so it's kind of interesting to see that it still finished out among the top five. I think looking at, for example, the BAFTA list, it was interesting because Arco did miss the cut for international film. And made it for children's film. And made it for children's film, but Little Emily made it for animated film. And so I had some skepticism as to if there was enough room for Arco and Little Emily. Maybe they were going to include another major US studio, another populist film, another children's film, um, another family film, but that did not necessarily come to pass. So um, Arco and Little Emily, that's great to see. Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, and now moving on to uh probably the biggest uh uh category of the ghettoised categories, which is international film, which again seemed poised to uh make a big dent in the uh American Academy Awards.
SPEAKER_02:You know, it did not come to pass, unfortunately. They got some pushback. Right.
SPEAKER_04:And so the nominees were it was just an accident from France, the secret agent from Brazil, Sentimental Value from Norway, Surrat from Spain, and the voice of Henrajah from Tunisia. Now I will say four of the five were favorites. Uh the voice of Henrajab was sitting at number six at Gold Derby. Um you and I had those five from months, months ago.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, we've been on those five for a while.
SPEAKER_04:You and I felt pretty certain, felt very certain that if you listen to the podcast, you'll see that we felt very certain that no other choice was gonna be blanked. Yeah, and not get nominated anywhere.
SPEAKER_02:I think we were a little bit late on Surratt, but we hadn't seen it yet. At the same time, you know, once those long lists came out, we we understood that Surratt was gonna be a major contender here. Um, but you know, some major pundits started siding with um Voice of Humor Jab towards the end. This is the second nomination, I believe, for Tunisia, which is great. Um, Olivier Lachay made it in um for Spain. Um Brazil's coming off a win for um I'm I'm still here. I'm still here. Um which could make this interesting um because obviously the story will become as we continue diving into these nominees, where uh it was just an accident was uh overlooked. Um sentimental value at the same time got nine. So it'll be interesting to see what the winner is among those three. Um Tefar Panahi gets the nomination here finally. Um no neon five, as we had predicted long ago. Um Venice winner's still in here. Uh yeah, it's an interesting list. And I think it's actually been a while since we've had a female filmmaker included here, so it's great to see Katrin Banhanya here. Um, it's also the BAFTA five. So again, had maybe the BAFTA announced a little bit of a put the voice of Hammer. Everyone would have put the voice of Hamerja.
SPEAKER_04:But we had it at the best ops, right?
SPEAKER_02:And again, no other choice, I think, certainly um is is set back by some of the controversy that came out. I I that's at least what I believe.
SPEAKER_04:I agree. Moving on to visual effects, the nominees were Avatar, Fire and Ash, F1, Jurassic World, Rebirth, The Lost Bus, and Sinners. Now, Avatar, F1, and Sinners were favorites. Oh no, actually, no, Avatar and F1 were favorites, period. Right. Uh Frankenstein was a favorite, but you and I were very cold on Frankenstein. We were very unlikely to get that visual effects nomination. Sinners was sitting at number six, I believe, and we didn't think that they'd go for it. Right.
SPEAKER_02:You know, and uh they didn't. Yeah, I mean, at least it got the Visual Effects Society nomination for supporting effects. We thought that the shutout for Frankenstein at the Visual Effects Society would be really um detrimental, and it was the Lost Bust picked up steam of all those nominations, and we said they have a pattern of you know rewarding more serious-minded films, films inspired by history, um, disaster films inspired by the world.
SPEAKER_04:We called that one early, yeah, but I will say we were very high on Jurassic World Rebirth at the beginning, and then we saw it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we finally got a look at it, and then we saw we're not impressed. Right.
SPEAKER_04:And then we said, What is the alien from doing on it on Jurassic World War? And so that compelled us to move it down and out of our list, yeah. However, we were wrong to, because your initial hunch was that they like films by this filmmaker. Gareth Edwards.
SPEAKER_02:I thought he's been here in this category before he was here for uh Rogue One, which they liked a lot, and he was here for the creator, which they liked a lot. And I think he has a strong reputation amongst um members of this branch, and they were impressed with Jurassic World Rebirth. There was some reporting out of the bake-off that had a really good reel, so maybe um that made the difference. If I couldn't see it in the movie, yeah, I couldn't see the reel in the movie, I just saw the movie. Um, but uh sort of I think an interesting note here, Superman was a massive uh box office success in the US. Massive snubby. And and it was a I it's so shocking to not see it on this list.
SPEAKER_04:Um also missing a uh a gold derby favorite for people now who might say otherwise the uh wicked, yeah, you know, was a favorite to get at least five nominations, which I think is unheard of for a movie that's not even gonna get an on A for Best Picture. Right. Um, it misses, and I think it was pretty easy to tell that it was gonna miss visual effects.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, we sort of saw it and and sort of had the argument of can't, and I'm not sure that you know, after it squeaked in with um last year, I'm not sure it's gonna be able to squeak in again.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_02:Um, yeah, and then I thought maybe Tron Aries, which was very visual effects heavy and had the Jared Little factor, uh, might uh break in here, but no. Um uh that said, uh, I think this category is going to be a walk in phase two. 100%.
SPEAKER_04:Um, let's move on to best sound, which everyone most people got right because I think uh Surratt kind of landed in the top five by the end. And as you were saying in international film, you know, Surratt did have a pretty good day because for a film like Surrat to get sound, it's still a big deal. I mean, but I want to say that it fell below the expectations that you and I had because we thought it would be a minimum five nominee film. And I will say that there were good reasons behind it. It did well in the short lists. Um uh people I know uh filmmakers who were incredibly passionate about it. And we said, listen, if it gets nominated for sound design, yes, the amount of foreign films that get nominated for sound design and do not get nominated for best picture is very, very few, very few.
SPEAKER_02:We couldn't and we couldn't find very many at least. Um, so we thought it would be a great hint as to where Surrat would fall.
SPEAKER_04:And I will say the case. Right. I will say that at the end of the day, we predicted Sarah for five nominations and only got two. It only got two.
SPEAKER_02:And I will say this is the the other nomination it got besides international film.
SPEAKER_04:I will say that, you know, going to sleep that night, I was I I was thinking five is a bit much, you know, maybe not five, four. Well, you know You know, that we were wrong at least in one. I didn't think we were gonna be wrong in three.
SPEAKER_02:You know, I will say I foregrounded it saying as we're gonna have a little bit of a a battle between and this is a joke, um, a battle between the car movies. The voters are really either gonna love Surratt or they're gonna love F1. And I actually think, you know, as heartbreaking as it is, they that that did come to play. Yeah, it just very much fell in line for the more conventional American film. 100%.
SPEAKER_04:Um that said, I do think I think it would have been, and we'll talk about it maybe, but it would have been too cool for the Academy to nominate Surratt for Best Picture. We should have clocked that, you know. But they really do.
SPEAKER_02:You know, this is not Aquir on the Western Front, this is not Emilia Perez, this is a hardcore, uncompromising art house film um that's multicultural and abstract and and difficult to watch. And so its inclusion here is fantastic. Fantastic. Um, it just speaks to good work, will win out. 100%. Um, I think I believe it's an all-female um sound uh team, which is also great. I think that's also historic. It might be. Um, the other thing I was gonna say is I'm not sure Neon has had much traction in this race before. So that's a that's a win for Neon, right? Um, they don't get everything, but this is an inch in the right direction, I think, for international films, um, for Neon. So that's that's the silver lining here. I will say we did not have the cinema auto society to predict this, where at the Cinema Auto Society, Avatar was snubbed yet again. Yeah, we sort of rolled the idea that it not showing up at the Motion Picture Sound Editors was terrible, and so we kept it off. And so Avatar capped its nomination. So Visual Effects does I'm sorry, no, excuse me. There's one more. There is one nomination coming up for Avatar. Which again, the give this individual the Oscar, whoever was able to predict this nomination for Avatar. Um, but yes, um, Avatar was missing from this category as a favorite. Of course, Wicked was missing. We had called that already, that was gonna have a tough time. Frank and Sai made it in as we had thought.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Uh, for best original score, this one was tough because I was really kicking myself because I was kicking you too, yeah. You said all along. And he Joseph said it over and over and over again. He said Begonia is going to get nominated for original. It makes the most sense, yeah. And the nominees were begonia, Frankenstein, Hamnet, one bad after another, and Sinners. And me thinking that Jersken Fendricks had just been nominated for Poor Things, another Jorgos film. Not the most known of composers. Right. Why would they nominate him again so soon? Um, initially, we predicted uh you were thinking begonia as the veteran spot in the list, right? You know, uh, because we were kind of slim pickings between that, possibly F1. Um, correct? Right.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I think that what what really I think what really bokeh for me for begonia was that I wanted someone on the list that was not gonna be a best picture nominee. And again, so here's the caveat is I was right, you know, Begonia broke into the category. I was wrong, Begonia is very much a best picture nominee. So people should know it's not very often that you're gonna get all five original score nominees from best picture nominee.
SPEAKER_04:And so this is we kept looking and we said we're not seeing it. Couldn't find too many. And I apologize.
SPEAKER_02:It wasn't that you said there was a veteran on the list, it was that that you know, a film from it shouldn't be five from best picture. I wanted a best picture outlier on this list that did not come into fruition. So I I do think that's interesting, is that you know, this is one of the few times in history I think we had to go back to like when there were the category was split and there was 10 nominees. It's one of the few uh times in history where all five score nominees are best picture nominees. As odd as that sounds, yeah. And so we toyed around with F1, which is also best picture nominee. We toyed around with Surratt, which we predicted for best picture at the end, and then I think we toyed around with Marty, but we were sort of we were kind of bullish on Marty not getting in.
SPEAKER_04:We were I we felt surprisingly confident that Marty Supreme would not get nominated for score. It did not get nominated, it was a favorite to get nominated here, right?
SPEAKER_02:Right, and it doesn't show up. And I will say that uh at the BAFTA, right? Um the five repeat. And so it may have been a tip off had we had the BAFTA that Marty was not going to make that cut.
SPEAKER_04:Everyone would have everyone would have taken Marty out. Exactly. And you and I, at least I would have bought more your argument of yeah, Bugonia.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and then um they also, of course, did not nominate Surratt, but Surratt did not make uh the long list, I believe, because Bafta Bafta was not crazy about Surratt right.
SPEAKER_04:Um moving on to original song, you know, there was uh two big surprises in this category, and I think this was the moment. Well, first I'll read the nominees. The nominees are Dear Me from Diane Warren, Relentless, yet another nomination, Golden from K-pop Demon Hunters, I Lied to You from Sinners, Sweet Dreams of Joy from Viva Verdi, and Train Dreams from Train Dreams. Okay, so this was I think the moment where I think everyone understood, oh shit, Wicked is going to get blanked. Oh, oh, I thought you were gonna say, Oh shit, Diane Warren is never gonna get snubbed. You're right, and that too. Um, so that's what Wicked needed is some Diane Warren. They would not have dared to snub Diane Warren, even in Wicked. Yeah, um, so no freaking wicked. And this was like one of the categories where I I would have I would have bet my life that it was going to get Nier for a song again.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I after Avatar, I will say that whoever predicted like a zero day for Wicked, you know, mad respect to that individual. No, I don't think anybody did that.
SPEAKER_04:Even again, even at our most Like I said, we were one of the few people that were most aggressive.
SPEAKER_02:We would not have bet a year ago that Wicked would go from 10 nominations to zero. Zero. It would have to have been, you know, a huge clunker that only made like it would have to be Joker. It would have to be Jokerfolia do right, right? You know, the idea that that Wicked makes as much money as it does and is, you know, as critically marginal as it is, um, compared to Jokerfolia do, and they have the same amount of nominations, that says a lot, in my opinion. Yeah. Um, so again, you're right. When when it misses its nomination here, that's massive.
SPEAKER_04:I think when you start, you know, dawning and it starts dawning on you that a film goes from 10 to 0. And again, anyone that was predicting four, five, six was nuts, in my opinion. Right. But it goes to show you, and I asked you, Joseph, when this was done, the nominees were were were revealed. Is it a statement? And I feel like it is, it was a statement. Yeah, it was it was a statement of this is a bad movie. Yeah, this is not a good film, right? It doesn't deserve these nominations. And I am not happy with the decision that you made of splitting these two movies, which very clearly now was out of greed and money.
SPEAKER_02:I I a hundred percent agree with you. I think it's very much a Statement on the movie, but as much as it is a statement on the industry practice. I don't think voters, industry members, want to see movies being cut up into pieces and being sold, you know, consecutively or unnecessarily. And so I think this is already a red flag for whoever out there is predicting that doing whatever is going to end up getting nominated for 10 Academy Awards and finally winning best picture. I think this is, you know, possibly a wake-up call that this isn't that's not necessarily what the Academy enjoys and what they're voting for right now. It'll still be number one on Cold Derby. It will still be number one on Gold Derby. Um, but yes, I think it was an absolutely brutal category to miss.
SPEAKER_04:And I will say the other big thing that happened in this category was the surprise nomination for Sweet Dreams of Joy. Yes. Which we've heard from Twitter, I I'm not well versed, so I apologize. Uh, but look it up when after you're done listening to this, that it was a song that was completed like in 2017. Wow. 2018. Yeah, it just hadn't been included in a film yet. Wow. Um, uh, or this film. So it's a weird story. It's a weird story, and people were already fishing that there might have been something fishy about this nomination.
SPEAKER_02:Oh no, don't tell me, oh, come on. I mean, well, listen, I'll say this. I we know a little bit of the movie, and we thought, you know, this could appeal to the voters because it's a it's a unique story, it's about musicians, yeah, right. And I think this category really tries to spotlight different types of music. I remember, for example, when when they had that really sort of ingenious nomination for the original song from Kids of the Flower Moon. And so I thought, you know, opera singers, you know, they don't get a chance to do that very often. You know, aging opera singers is the subject of the of the film. So I thought the branch could respond to that. So I'm not totally shocked to see it there. I will say, I believe it's the first time since 2015 that we get two docks on this list. Um, one doc being about Diane Warren. So um, and the last time that happened was Diane Warren in 2015 for the hunting ground. Um wow. Yeah, that was uh that was a 2015 year. Um it was Diane Warren. Warren is a beast. Dan Warren and Jay Ralph. Let's see if Diane Warren can finally win. I don't know.
SPEAKER_04:A competitive Oscar. She's not beating K-pop. You know, I I will eat my boot if she beats K-pop. Diane Warren needs the is the best picture movie.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. She needs Dear I'm sorry, relentless to be nominated for Best Picture, and then she could win the Oscar.
SPEAKER_04:Um, I learned my lesson in past years of not predicting Diane Warren. I wasn't gonna do that. That's a good lesson. Because you you were you were you were you were flirting with a little, I was flirting with her. Like, can they really do that? And yeah, they can. Yes, they can. They absolutely can. They will nominate uh Diane Warren will be the first person to reach 100 nominations. You know what?
SPEAKER_02:Diane Warren's Relentless was shortlisted, I believe, for original score. Yeah, that's how much they love Diane Warren. The rare documentary. We talk about when is a documentary gonna break into those craft categories. It will be a Diane Warren documentary.
SPEAKER_04:Um, for best makeup and hairstyling, the nominees were Frankenstein, Cukuho, Sinners, The Smashing Machine, and The Ugly Stepsister. Uh hands down, which was a really cool nomination.
SPEAKER_02:Hands down, one of my favorite categories of uh this year's Oscars, super massively eclectic. Yeah, you have three horror films included, they could not look any different. I'm sorry, excuse me, any more different. Um, it was great uh to see um Frankenstein get nominated because Game of Toro films do have a history of not making it on this list. Maybe there could have been an egregious snub. That was not the case. That's a favorite.
SPEAKER_04:No way, I don't think so.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I remember when they snubbed Shape of Water, and so you know, you never know. I remember when they snubbed Black Panther, and so it's great to see Sinners and Frankenstein on here together because I'm sure those filmmakers remembered remember when each of their films did not make this list. Um, uh Smashing Machine gets the uh spot of the uh real person. Um, at the same time, we sort of we called this the Battle of the Safties and the Battle of the A24 movies. Uh, they obviously chose the work that was done on Dwayne Johnson, very deserving. Um, but it was great to see two international films here. And again, we talk about like inches forward, tiny inches forward. Um, not too often that we get to see two international films here, um, but certainly not from Japan, for example. I don't think Japan has broken into this category before, so that was really wonderful to see G Kids, which is responsible. I think listeners will know for a lot of them movies from Studio Ghibli and Haimeyazaki. It's great to see them break into a uh a love action category. Um, and then the ugly stepsister out of Sundance um was just uh a wonderful, wonderful surprise. Yeah. Um we had we had debated. Yeah, I we had debated it, right? I I resisted putting it, yeah. He resisted putting it.
SPEAKER_04:I sort of said, listen, if I'm gonna be forced to Well, because I thought it was only gonna be one foreign film, and I still thought that this was a category that Wicked could break into.
SPEAKER_02:That was it. This was again one of those categories where we said, listen, if you watch the movie, maybe you don't, but it there's a bake-off. And if you watch the bake-off, the work on the Tin Man is gonna get it in. That did not happen. Um, so we had the the debate as to what international film we're gonna put in, and we just said that Cuckuho, with sort of its um unique um uh subject matter, you know, in a fusing. Yeah, fusing, yeah, fusing um kabuki and uh Yakuza, you know, that those things are gonna help it break through along with all the massive amount of money made in Japan. It was also shortlisted for foreign film, and we felt a little bit disappointed that maybe the Ugly Stepsister was gonna get outgunned, even if it had a really good team that's you know been exposed to this branch before because they've worked on films from uh Scandinavia, including 100-year-old man, um and uh border, for example, and that did not that was not the case. They were there was room for both of them, which is great to see. Yeah, the Ugly Stopsisters are really cool film if you haven't seen it. And they love they love sort of like those fantasy films, and I sort of said, like, listen, this branch that loves fantasy, they're gonna they're gonna really respond to a film like the ugly step sister because also it's not just fantasy like in the realm of Cinderella and fantasy. It's it's twisted fantasy, and it's also very much about you know self-image, right? Yeah, okay and makeup is kind of a character in the film. 100% self.
SPEAKER_04:100% really cool nomination. Uh moving on to costume design, the nominees were Avatar, Fire, and Ash. Whoever, what the hell? Whoever got this, yeah. Um, taking the spot. Who would have thought Avatar, Fire and Ash instead of Wicked? You know, right. That was shocking. So Avatar, Fire and Ash, Frankenstein, Hamnet, Marty Supreme, and Sinners. This was a bit of a surprising category. I mean, obviously, from Avatar. But besides Avatar, um, you and I were thinking that Marty was not going to make it because it was blanked out of the Costume Designers Guild. We the number of people who've been nominated and not been first mentioned at the uh Costume Designers Guild at some point or for the movie that they're contending for, you know, is almost nobody.
SPEAKER_02:I think it's a strong statement in the sense that the costumes were very good in Marty Supreme. And we were very, very um committed to the idea that Jack Fisk was going to get it for his production design. Um, could it maybe lead to uh Miyako getting in for costumes, possibly, but we couldn't find a compelling argument for the academy, the voters in this branch welcoming a costume designer that they weren't at least somewhat familiar with um from their uh from their guild. And Miyako did miss that nomination from Ari Supreme. Usually, when that happens, it'll be because it's an international title, for example, something like The Grandmaster or something like I Am Love, but this is very much an American production. So this mention for Miyako is is really massive. I think it it goes to show us and other listeners that it's more important to be in a top five DJ movie um than it is to necessarily be known um or exposed to the members in your branch.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Unfortunately, films like Kiss of the Spider Woman and The Testament of Ann Lee, as worthy as that work was, uh were ahead of, which got the Cosmo Designers Guild nomination, were left out. And in uh Kiss of the Spider Woman's uh uh case, Colleen Atwood had another film, uh, one battle after another.
SPEAKER_02:So they most people, and which most people at the end pegged one battle after another for the nomination.
SPEAKER_04:It didn't make the top five, but I was certainly someone who was saying, you know, if they can't choose and they don't want to go to a film that maybe they didn't see because it wasn't promoted enough, like because of Spider-Woman, they could just offer one battle after another.
SPEAKER_02:And we had the debate as to if they really insist on giving one battle after another 14 nominations, this may be the category where they um decide to give it that nom and not, for example, something like makeup, where the work is just the work on Champagne is just too small.
SPEAKER_04:It was in the top five, though, for Gold Derby.
SPEAKER_02:It was in the top five for me. And and I believe it was close for Costume. No, actually, it wasn't. See, I I thought I there was a lot of reputable pundits who were pegging one battle in this category. Now, let's talk about uh Deborah L. Scott for a second. Um, listen, they really campaigned for this. I have to say, like I remember Avatar. Exactly. Her nomination for Avatar, Fire and Ash, the film's only nomination besides Visual Effects. Um crazy. One of two nominations this year, they really campaigned hard for it. I remember like before the movie came out, like maybe a week, I remember seeing a video on all the work they did for the costumes. So they campaigned really hard for this. It paid off.
SPEAKER_04:Never disregard things like that. Yeah. You know, when you're in this Oscar predicting game and you see, like, oh, that's a weird video. Oh, you know, oh, that's a weird feature, right? Oh, that's a weird billboard. You know, don't don't don't take it for granted. Yeah. There's there's there's things happening behind that.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, absolutely. Um, and so it's really, really fascinating. I'm not sure who the hell predicted it. Um, I will say she is a veteran. She is a veteran, which would one reason why we like Colleen at the moment. We like Colleen for that. Right. Um, we wanted we wanted more veterans on this list. Um, she did the costumes on Titanic, she won for that. Um, and she's actually a three-time guild nominee for all her work on Avatar and actually not for Titanic, which is kind of interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, but so you know, when you look at it that way, maybe it's less surprising. You know, this is um only this is her second nomination, it's not her first Oscar nomination, but I mean, I I I tip my hat to have whoever ran that campaign.
SPEAKER_04:No, I nobody got that right, and that was an amazing nomination.
SPEAKER_02:It's something that they've been fighting for for uh more than a decade now, which is the idea that Avatar is more than just visual effects, actors, and motion capture. Like it has it has real makeup artists and hair designers and costume designers and production designers, and it feels like a battle they've been losing for a long time. Um, because you go again from the 09 films to the 2022 film, and this year it's just visual effects. But you know, I I really do feel like the nomination for costume design for avatar should kind of feel like a best picture of a person to them because it kind of feels like maybe again we're inching towards people accepting this idea that we can consider Avatar for more things than just visual effects.
SPEAKER_04:And I also want to say, you know, not to rag on Wicked too much, but you know, in a way, Wicked and Avatar did similarly in terms of marginal critics. I would say that Avatar beat Wicked slightly, yeah. You know, you know, slightly, but I think that slight counts. But I think the Academy was very firm in saying Avatar is a legacy project that we're going to embrace even you know, here and there, you know, even if it's not in the heyday of its, you know, nine or eight nominations. Wicked is not that.
SPEAKER_02:Right. I think maybe it could also be that the little bit of distance between Avatar, as small as it was, talking about what, three years is a lot more effective. Maybe you're right. It's a lot more effective than 11 months. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. Um, so that may also be a factor. I I agree with you though, the just the legacy project of it and and the James Cameron of it all the standing of James Cameron and John Landau in the industry. Right.
SPEAKER_04:And so uh let's move on now to cinematography. And honestly, there were no surprises here. These were the five. Oh, actually, yeah, there was one surprise that was flirting outside the top five, right? Right. And that is Marty Supreme. Yeah. But you and I were convinced that it was going to get in.
SPEAKER_02:We were caught steam late, caught steam late after that ASCII.
SPEAKER_04:And we got very good odds off off of it. Right. Uh people being late to it. Right. Uh, and so this is only Darius Kanji's third nomination.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, which is crazy. But I think a lot of people were sort of saying that Darius Kanji, in the predictions at least, the logic was that Darius Kanji can sort of be sidelined by the voting members this year because he was nominated as the sole nominee for Bardo, and that instead they were gonna nominate Lucas for Hamnet because he didn't get in with his last best picture movie, which was zone of interest. Um, but no, I think we've continued to see Lucas' struggle in film shot in color.
SPEAKER_04:But we also said that it's gonna be weird to give Lucas his third nomination, and Darius Kanji has yet to get his third. Right.
SPEAKER_02:We thought that was a weird we kind of said that we wanted someone, we wanted a we have some veterans on here, but we wanted a veteran who's been working for a sizable for a significant amount of time, who's had a sizable career. Upper echelon. Exactly. So Darius Kanji is like they're rubbing shoulders with Lockman and Robert Richardson and Roger Deacons. These are all filmmakers that are sort of working in the same period, and so it it made sense to us to include him there.
SPEAKER_04:Right. So uh before I I'm sorry, I meant I didn't mention the list. The nominees were Frankenstein, Marty Supreme, one bad after another, Sinners and Train Dreams. Again, Marty Surprise get Marty Supreme getting in there over uh the favorite being Hamnet. Yeah, again, even if Hamlet was really losing steam. I think if you were paying attention to the breadcrumbs, you were seeing that that was a snub waiting to happen.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, a lot of significant pundits were saying uh Hamnet was not gonna make it. This was um, I think a really disappointing snub for Focus Features, who otherwise had a pretty good day. Um, I'm sure they're disappointed. Yeah, I um I'm sure disappointed about that. Um, but I will say it's not the worst snub that Hammond had all day. Yeah, we'll get to that.
SPEAKER_04:Um for best production design, there was one very surprising nominee here. What the hell? Very, very surprising. Um, but had we seen the BAFTA, I think we would have clocked it. Yes, and that is that for production design, the nominees were Frankenstein, Hamnet, Marty Supreme, Sinners, and one battle after another. Right. And that becomes one battle's 13th nomination.
SPEAKER_02:Right. And it and it would have, in theory, for for the way we were thinking about how it was going to break down mathematically, it would have been its 14th nomination, right? Except there is going to be a significant snub for that film, which we'll get into later. Um, but yes, it was a surprising mention for one battle, um, one battle after another. Um, I think it's certainly the favorite to win the contemporary category at the guild, but not very often that you see contemporary films land here, um, especially not contemporary films without their costume designer. And it's kind of interesting because there were some pundits who were, you know, saying that the category of costume design was so thin that Colleen would get in for one battle after another, which led us to believe that maybe Colleen could surprise for something flashier, like because of Spider Woman. Um lo and behold, Colleen does not get in for one battle after another, but her film's production design does get in. Yeah. Um, but I think you know, it's it's kind of fun. Um I believe No, I like the nomination. I I do like the nomination, and I think the work um merits a spotlight. I think it's also kind of fun in the sense that um uh Florentia Florencia Martin um I believe worked with uh Paul Thomas Anderson um on uh Licorice Pizza, and she's a she was a nominee already for Babylon. Um so a little bit a little bit surprising, yeah, right, to see in the BAFTA. They nominated, wasn't it the same five? It was. It went five with the BAFTA, but we did not have the BAFTA with us. Right. I think that would have helped. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Um for best editing, let's say that uh the ace eddie, we have to mention, came out rather recently.
SPEAKER_02:I think the ace eddie might have confused the situation the situation more. Yeah, I would have rather had the BAFTA. I mean, you're gonna say that it would have revealed something, but again, I'm gonna point out the idea that I've been I've been on this train for a while.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I'll just say that for the Oscars, the nominees for best film editing were F1, Marty Supreme, one battle after another, sentimental value and sinners. And as you were saying, Joseph, you are high on the idea that Sentimental Value was going to get nominated here. Mainly because we've seen a trend of a best picture foreign language film making this list. Yeah, I Right, right, exactly. I was of the opinion that the editing in well, the editing in all of Joachim Trier's films are very, you know, um specific, meticulous, you know, that's certainly a part of how he kind of structures the experience. But when I saw the film, I thought there were too many fate to blacks or too many cut to blacks, and you know, uh possibly even in my own personal opinion, not as tight as I've seen some of his other films. And so I was led astray by that opinion. And I thought, you know, I really don't think sentimental value is going to crack this list. You know, I would see some I would see another foreign film make this list before Sentimental Value, like Sir, like Surat.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_04:Um, even something like The Secret Agent, which I think is beautifully edited. Um, and the pattern continues, and they nominated a foreign language film, arguably the you know, biggest foreign language film that's included in the in the nominations. 100%. Um I and I will say it got nominated at the BAFTA.
SPEAKER_02:It got nominated at the BAFTA and it got nominated at the Ace. Yes, right. And so had you had those two things, 100%, more people would have caught on. Um, I had the benefit of really enjoying the editing work. Um, it stood out to me. Um at the same time, in the back of my mind, I understood that if it was likely that a foreign film was gonna um land here. But I just think it goes to show you that there's a strong um uh there's a strong percentage of voters in this branch um that possibly work um on international titles or have a strong affinity for international titles. I think that's what we're seeing, and it's sort of it's really, I think, solidified itself over the last few years. Um because I I would argue sentimental value is possibly maybe the the quote less flashy edited film, you know, compared to some recent nominees here. Um but I I think um I'm not surprised by the mention also in the sense that I think editors know um that Olivier is a longtime collaborator of Joaquin, and I feel I feel like that's something we've seen recently, which is um editors wanting to nominate um these these editors that have been longtime collaborators of the filmmakers. I mean, the same thing with um Mike Michael uh Schauer um with Ryan Kugler Cinners, they've worked together for so many films. Um I think to me the more surprising one, and again, I think people are gonna harp harp, you know, people really believed that there was gonna be a veteran in the category and that it was gonna be the editor for F1. I resisted that theory for a long time. I told you that you were crazy for resisting. And and my argument was there's no way because Steven Marion does not get in without his movie getting into Best Picture, but lo and behold, it does get into Best Picture. Picture. And so that is again, you know, that's the way the cookie crumbles.
SPEAKER_04:Um, but yeah. I think you told me that when we were predicting at some point, you were like, you know, Jules, if F1 gets an eye for film editing, it's getting nine for best picture. Yes. And you said it with like this stern, forewarning face. Like, listen, this is gonna happen if editing happens. Yeah. So you better pray that it does.
SPEAKER_02:Um, but if you look at the BAFTA, for example, um, you don't see sentimental value nominated, uh, excuse me. Um, but you did it wasn't nominated for the BAFTA. It was actually not nominated for the BAFTA. But um, what you did see was a double veteran. And so it goes to show you the idea that a veteran is quote unquote important. And I'm sure next year editors are gonna say, I don't care and not nominate a veteran, but this year at least it was important. Um, because the only nominees, I mean, I guess the surprising nominees for the BAFTA were F1, possibly, because it didn't do great. Um, but House of Dynamite, it was its only nomination. Um, and it was one of the few categories that it maybe had a shot in at the Oscars because of the need for a veteran. Um, other nominees were Marty Supreme, one bad after another, and Sinners. Um, at the Ace Eddie, right, is where you do see sentimental value get nominated for future film drama, along with Hamnet, uh Sinners, F1, Weapons, which at one point we were considering uh great to see weapons there. Um, and then on the uh feature comedy, Bugonia, which we debated for the veteran spot as well, Marty Supreme, one bad after another, Wake Up Dead Man, Wicked for Good, which could have been another veteran. Um, kind of something interesting that we were sort of we caught on to early, which did sort of manifest itself here was no double directors.
SPEAKER_04:So Josh Safty. Yes, we were we talked about listen, the odds that the film editing branch was going to let in two film two directors right for you know, two different films. That's that was very uh unlikely.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we didn't think there was a great chance, and we sort of figured that it was going to factor against Chloe Zhao because she was recently nominated for Nomad Land.
SPEAKER_04:Also because I think you know, uh Marty Supreme and the Safties films in general, you know, include so much editing into their aesthetic.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_04:Chloe Zhao is more organic in the way she kind of formulates her films. Yeah, so that was just a showier pick.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, a flashier pick. I will say Josh got nominated along with Ronald Bronstein, who is a writer on the film as well.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, he's also a producer, so yeah.
SPEAKER_02:He got nominated three times. Yeah. And Josh, I believe, gets nominated four times. Josh, I believe, gets nominated four times.
SPEAKER_04:Wow. Um, all right. Well, uh, that was film editing. Let's move on really quick to uh the uh screenplay categories before we move on into the new category and the acting directing picture. Yes. So I want to say the easy one. Everyone got adapted screenplay correct, yes which are begonia, Frankenstein, Hamnet, one battle after another, and Train Dreams, or those were by far the favorites.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, there wasn't too much debate as to you know whether that could um surprise or whether we were overlooking any major contender.
SPEAKER_04:I will say I believe the scripter happened recently too, and that PTA won that for one battle after another.
SPEAKER_02:Um I will say that over at the BAFTA, it has a maybe a little bit more of an entertaining list. Um nominees there were one battle after another. Uh Bugonia and Hamnet, but they sided for the ballot of Wallace Island and Pillion. Frankenstein in general had a pretty terrible day at BAFTA. Yeah, pretty bad. Um, and Train Dreams did not do much better, although I suppose there was less expectation there. Um, some interesting things here. I think um we kind of caught on to the Frankenstein thing pretty early because of the Teleriad love. Yes. Um, Chloe Zhao nominated here. Films that make the Teluri lineup. I'm sorry, excuse me, the two the Toronto's Choice Award.
SPEAKER_04:Um, the People's Choice Award, um semi-finalists and should have a very good chance of breaking into screenplay. And actually, this was one of the first years in a few in a while where not all three made it it. Right. Because the third, the third place went to uh Wake Up Dead Man went to the first time.
SPEAKER_02:And so the debate was is there room for three Netflix movies? And obviously there was not.
SPEAKER_04:Uh but also we had debated that there should be diminishing returns.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. But we kind of argued, well, can there really be diminishing returns for the knives out movies? Because they never really got in more than just that one like loyalty from that one brand.
SPEAKER_04:Diminishing returns is diminishing returns.
SPEAKER_02:One to zero. I mean, it I will say it was a pretty again, it's it hasn't been a great season for Wake Up Dead Man, especially after Toronto and the way people were pegging it. Right. Um, which again, maybe shouldn't be surprising. Um, but yes, so this was the more expected of the screenplay category. The more interesting one is original. Original screenplay.
SPEAKER_04:I will say I'm so happy that I clocked the sort the nomination for Robert Capel for Blue Moon. I give you a lot of credit for that because I was not thinking that at all. Right. So the nominees for original screenplay were Blue Moon. It was just an accident. Marty Supreme, Sentimental Value, and Sinners. So this is the second and last nomination that Jafar Panahi receives for it was just an accident. It does not get nominated anywhere else. Again, inches for international films, just inches. Marty Supreme was a favorite, Sentimental Value was a favorite, Sinners was a favorite, Blue Moon was not a favorite, and so I was very, very, very happy that I clocked that one. Very few people were predicting it. People were going with The Secret Agent, people were going with Sorry Baby. There was very few to know people going Blue Moon.
SPEAKER_02:I absolutely agree with you. I think at the end, most people sided with sorry baby and A24, getting a second nomination here. Um, you convinced me on Blue Moon at the 11th hour. Um and you were right. And again, I I I still don't know how you did it, but it makes a lot of sense. Sony Picture Classic shows up here. We at one point had the discussion as to if it gets screenplay and actor, is it a best picture movie? And so after this nomination was announced, I thought we started thinking, Oh shit. Yeah, maybe, maybe it had just enough to break into Best Picture. Um, we also had a little bit of a debate in terms of how the foreign films would stack up here. So, like everyone knows Sinners, Mari Supreme, and Sentimental Value, especially after European Film Awards, were were favorites here. That fourth spot, um, a lot of people were comfortable with it was just an accident. And the fifth spot, a lot of people were sort of siding with the secret agent because the secret agent has gotten a lot of love, especially in the foreign film category. And if anything, usually what you'll see is the favorite for foreign film breaking in to the screenplay and directing fields. But that was not the case this year. And let's start with um, so it starts with our original screenplay where the secret agent, after winning the Golden Globe for um international film, uh, does not make it into the screenplay category. And and so we I think you had you had convinced us to sort of consider whether or not there was room for both um it was just an accident and the secret agent, if there was room for three neon titles on this list when Sentimento Valley was already in there. Um and ultimately I think you sided with it was just an accident, right? Right, right. And I was I was skeptical about it, so I don't know what exactly led you to believe that that that Jafar Panahi had the edge here.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I mean I think part of me thinking that he had the edge is because I really firmly believed I didn't buy into the he wasn't gonna get an eye for best picture. You know, I thought that it was a base picture foreign film screenplay nominee, director nominee at minimum. You know, um so I never really bought into it.
SPEAKER_02:So you you good you it's almost like you bought in more you bought more into the idea that if you had to snub one of them, it would be the secret agent. Right, 100%. Right.
SPEAKER_04:And and also I think that and we discussed this, you know, for me the sense uh the secret agent as much as the film that I love, for me it's a film that I would qualify as, you know, the directorial vision and execution sticks out more to me than the writing, you know, if I were to, you know, judge them side by side.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_04:And I thought that writers might feel the same way.
SPEAKER_02:Right. And and uh maybe to give some context to this, um, the BAFTA nominees um were Marty Supreme, Sinners, Sentimental Value. Then you had the Secret Agent get in, right? Right. Um, and you had um the British Independent film I Swear, which has been a hit there and did well up AFTA overall, and so it just goes to show you that best case scenario, there were maybe four spots that were taken up, and there was one really open spot. Um then again, the secret agent, and it was just an accident, obviously a little bit of net connect there with Jafar Panahi edging out um Kleber. Um, but he does it without the BAFTA nomination, and then over at the WGA, because they announced around the same time, the Writer's Guild Award, a couple of other films popped out that we thought could show up. Um nominees included Marty Supreme and Sinners. Remember, a lot of international titles were disqualified. I actually even believe Blue Moon did not qualify. Um, you know, sometimes this depends on whether you're um can be included um because of uh guild eligibility. Um so uh nominees uh ended up being weapons, right? Which we thought could possibly surprise, right? Um Black Bag, which we had debated if enough people if if the WJ list had come out a little bit earlier, could Black Bag had taken that spot? I believe so. I definitely think I mean David Coop is a legend in the industry, has never been nominated, uh, would have been another focus features movie, which was which would have been great. Um, big news for them. And then uh the second A24 movie was not sorry, baby, and I I believe it was eligible. Um, but the second uh A24 movie was if I had legs I'd kick you, which was surprising.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it was surprising. But I also want to say that I just goes to show you that even a film like If I had legs, I'd kick you, which got nominated for one Academy Award, there was still passion behind it because it could find its way into these other corners in the American industry guilds. You know, that it wasn't really a film that was it was writing by itself, right? It was writing alone, but there was passion behind it. Right. And that it would then a move then a nomination for Rose Byrne makes sense, right? Because it's different being in a film where you are the only nomination at lands, but there's passion behind you, you know, Amy Madigan for Weapons too, right, as opposed to a film that doesn't do well at the guilds and you stand to be the only nominee, and there isn't a lot of passion behind you, right? You know what I'm saying? Because the film doesn't really pop up anywhere else, right? You know, and and that's happened in the past. So I get I think that goes to show you that a lot of us were underestimating, even you and I who had Rose Byrne at 100 to 1 odds, you know. We uh every a lot of us were underestimating just how formidable a contender, right? Rose Byrne was. Right. For if I had like the Kiki.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and it's great to see the film here. We're gonna have a Bronsteen versus Bronsteen battle, which is gonna be fun. Uh at the WGA. At the WGA, um, which is gonna be fun. Um, you know, I do think if we had gone on this list beforehand, and and same thing goes with other prognosticators, um, you maybe would have seen a little bit of of holes in the opportunity for sorry, baby.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_02:I think at that that snub is sort of significant.
SPEAKER_04:I think a lot of people were writing on the Julia Roberts spotlighting at the Golden Globes, which I never really bought that. I I didn't buy a lot.
SPEAKER_02:I bought it, I bought it. Um, you know, I think that's not insignificant. I think again, apparently it wasn't that significant. Apparently, yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't. I think she needed to come on board as an executive producer earlier. Um, so she was a little bit late. Um, but um I think it was further away from this nomination, and it just I think the BAF dimension for the secret agent again would have had me siding for Kleber getting in and not Jafar. Um, there was a lot of talk about how far the Jafar Panahi film had fallen recently, yeah, and a lot of um you know debate as to whether it can claw its way back into Best Picture. We resisted that knowing sort of his standing in the industry and you know, just um how Iran is in the news or has been in the news lately. Um did not get a nomination for Best Picture, which is extremely disappointing. Um they nominated F1 instead, which is again choices. Um but but so it was great to at least see it nominated for one category other than international film.
SPEAKER_04:100%. Yeah. Um, I agree with you. I think that that was one of the more unfortunate things about this the uh nominations. Um, and I I agree with you. I resisted it for a very long time and it came true. Um for best casting, which was the new category before we get into the acting categories. Um, the nominees were Hamnet, Marty Supreme, one bad after another, the secret agent and sinners. I will say, minus the secret agent, these were the favorites, yeah. And swap out sentimental value for the secret agent. So a foreign language film still made it in. We were predicting two, right? Sentimental Value and Surrat. Unfortunately for us, neither got in.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_04:And instead the secret agent did, but I will say there was still some pushback here because only one got in.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_04:And you would think that sentimental value was the favorite because it got that European Film Award mentioned. And so I just felt that you know the foreign voters were more attuned to sentimental value being a casting choice, right? But ended up being the secret agent. And I think this is one of my favorite nominations, really, even though I got it wrong, so it's bittersweet.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_04:But I love the nomination for Secret Agent. I think the casting choices here in this in this film were amazing and added so much color to the film. Yeah, a lot of people.
SPEAKER_02:That's what I was gonna say was to me, this is one of the most heartbreaking snubs because it really did feel like Surrat was gonna have an opportunity here. Um, it was long listed um on this uh for the Oscars on that great day that it had a while ago, but it was also long-listed at the BAFTA. So it really felt like there was something that these casting direct uh casting directors, members of the branch were looking at that was really resonating with them. And if you see the film, and and we encourage all listeners to see the film in the biggest screen possible, um, you sort of understand why this film is showing up in so many places, but certainly in casting. And we thought, is there maybe something undeniable about the film um that was gonna be able to get it across the finish line? Um, again, there's really only room for one international film, so this is just inches again. And so it ends up being the neon film, The Secret Agent. Um I wished it was just an accident, was even on the long list. It wasn't. I think we want to mention that at the BAFTA, for example, um, they nominated Marty Supreme one battle after another, uh, Sinners. They went with sentimental value as well. That would have definitely commens right and that exactly, and we would have been wrong, right? So it's interesting also to like to note the divergences um between these voting groups, and lastly, I swear, right, which again was um unique to um the BAFTA because it hadn't been released here. Um but so I think I think at the end it's great to see a secret agent there. I completely agree with you. I wish there would have been again more international films. Um we predicted sentimental value and Sorrat, yeah, and Surratt. And so we got two we voted for two international films, which for the most part today backfired in almost every category. Um and um we we picked the wrong one. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Right.
SPEAKER_04:Um, other than that, other than that, you know, the favorites did get in. Marty Hamnet won battle in Sinners.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, now let's move on to the acting categories. Let's start with uh supporting actress. The nominees were Al Fanny, Sentimental Value, Inga Ibsteter, Lilias, Sentimental Value, Amy Madigan, Weapons, Woody Mosaku, Sinners, and Tayana Taylor for one battle after another. And so I will say that I was ecstatic that Al Fanny got nominated finally. I know. You and I were one of the few people predicting her. A lot of people had jumped ship uh with the BAFTA snub and the no sags, and because she didn't win enough critics groups, you know, stuff like that. But you and I held firm and we said, listen, if Al Fanning is in another best picture, because she's coming off one, she's coming off uh uh Bob Dylan's film, right? A complete non. She's in another best picture film, and her biggest competition now isn't Joan Baez, you know, an actress playing Joan Bias. It's another actor who has fewer credits than Al Fanning does. Al Fanning has been around for a very long time. She's been acting since she was a baby. Right. You know, we've seen her on our screens blossom into this beautifully talented woman, right? Um, actress, right, actor. And you're gonna tell me that they're going to snub her and instead include the likes of Inga Ipsotyolilius, who's amazing in her film. I love her in her film. Yeah, but she's not well, she's not well known. Right. And then Odessa Azian, who was getting a lot of steam at the end. Really, um, for Mari Supreme. Okay, great, but she's younger than Alf. She she's younger. She's younger than Al Fanning, and she's gonna get the nomination first. Right. And they might have just on her, they might have that was her breakthrough. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:The discovery moment.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, that was the discovery moments. You're gonna tell me that they're gonna snub Al Fanny, you know, and and not include her or include those two other actresses before they include her. To me, that made no sense. And there was something And to me, honestly, and and you know, maybe I'm being overly sensitive here. I mean, I am a big Al Fanny fan, but to me, it would have read as cruel. Yeah, you know, it would have read as like, right? It would have read Okay, listen, you were in a best picture movie last year. We said no. Instead, we're going to nominate this other actor who we don't know that much about, a discovery moment as well. Yeah, but we've decided that her moment is coming before yours. Okay. All right, fine. Well, she's playing Joan Bias. Okay, all right, fine. And then you're gonna do it again.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And and again, you this film is a favorite. It won the Grand Prix at Cannes. You're gonna tell me they're gonna do that again, right? To me, it would have read as like, how do you not take that as uh, you know, I guess they just don't like me.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_04:And I feel like A, no one can dislike Alfanny because she's just that great. But B, I don't I don't feel that they dislike her at all. You know, she's acted with several of her peers, with several in the industry from all walks of life, from all generations. I think that actors were primed to finally give her this moment and and embrace her into the club. This is be this will be one of many nominations that she will get in her career. I'm so ecstatic that she got it. So many people disbelieved. We believed 100% all the freaking way.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, uh, it's kind of interesting to know that like last year we got the first Kulkin nominated as well, and so this year we get the first Fanning, which is kind of funny.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um you know, I I will say this is one of the more remarkable categories um of the year. Um, because you have Alfanning and Inga staging a comeback after doing so poorly, the film doing so poorly at SAG. Very few times are you gonna get two actors from the same film land in an acting category where not even one of them was spotlighted at SAG. Yeah. Um, most of the time, to get two actors in, you need both of them in for SAG. And it's not exclusive. I remember when Jesse Plemonds was able to get in there for the power of the dog, right? Um, along with Cody, and he didn't have a SAG nomination. But most of the time, uh the um predecessor to two Oscar nominees for For a for a supporting category or a league category for that matter. From the same film. For the same film is usually um the two uh individuals showing up at the SAG in much the same way that Benisha Lotoro did and Sean Penn did. So um for Al Fanning and Inga to survive snubs, each of them, and make it uh into the final five is really impressive. Um, so I will say that that's one thing. The other thing is you have Amy Madigan there, and she is the sole nomination for weapons, but she's able to get in. Yeah, right. And uh lo and behold, as as we had theorized all year long, there had been a lot of discussion on Ariana Grande, right? Some people talked about Gwyneth Palatro, some people talked about um Emily Blunt, the veteran of the category, and again, there is only one, is uh Amy Madigan.
SPEAKER_04:Right, she was the best to choose from of the veterans, right? Point period, but you know, period. Right. And I will say that as you to your point of Al Fanning and Inga Epsotyr Lilius being able to make to make it in despite zero uh uh mentions at SAG and Amy Madigan to be able to get in, you know, uh as a sole nomination for a film, which we're seeing is becoming you know less and less popular, I think goes to show you that the field for best supporting actress, while they had some great contenders, I mean, this is a good list, you know, there were a lot, there was a lot of, you know, for lack of a better term, fluff, you know, not the bad, not the strongest contenders. Right. You know, regardless of you know, your personal opinions about how you feel about certain uh performances, certain films, you know, it was by and large, it was a group of uh performances here, films here that were just not as strong as what ultimately made the list. And and then and there were a lot of you know uh performances that would have been nice to have been spotlighted that were very far off, you know, in the distance. Right. Um, but in general, I think they said, listen, if I have to choose between some of these contenders and Al Fanning, I'm definitely gonna choose Al Fanning. Uh these contenders and Inga, I'm definitely gonna choose Inga. And uh uh these contenders and Amy Madigan, I'm definitely choosing Amy Madigan.
SPEAKER_02:I also want to take a moment here and mention, you know, to biggy back off what you were saying, Amy Madigan um is the only nominee in this category to not feature in a best picture movie, um, and the only one to feature as the film's only nomination. And so it goes to show you that very much the Academy is moving in the in the four acting categories? No, in the actress in the supporting actress category. Um so the Academy is very much moving um in the trajectory of supporting categories or just places to nominate best picture movies. Um, we'll talk about this as we go into supporting actor, but um, if if you get the double nomination for sentimental value in supporting actress and the double nomination for supporting actor um for one bad after another, which again rarely happens, by the way, to have double nominations for two different films um in two different categories in the same year. If you do that, I think we have what a total of um five movies um from the from the nominees in the supporting category. So between supporting actor and supporting um actress, the only movies that were nominated were One Battle After Another, Sentimental Value, Um, Weapons, Frankenstein, Sinners. So I think again, it just goes to show you that this category is certainly moving in that direction.
SPEAKER_04:But I I will also say, you know, I agree with you to a point, but I also think it had a lot to do with the contenders. You know, I do think that in a in a year where, you know, there might have been a bigger field in the supporting and the supporting actress race and the supporting actor race. I mean, you know, like I said, supporting actors was so fluid and the people were scratching their heads thinking, who's gonna make up these five? You and I were among the very early ones to say this is gonna end up being a battle between Tayana Taylor and Amy Madigan, um, before the precursors revealed the exact same thing. You know, uh the supporting actors race was very easy, you know, quickly nailed down to like seven contenders. You know, there wasn't a big you know group of contenders to choose from. And I also say that it was one of those years where the sheer dominance of one battle after another and sinners made that those two lists more concise, right?
SPEAKER_02:Um but you know, I think I think there's something to be said about not just competition, but I also think there's something to be said about visibility, right? And so the more visible your film is because it's a contender in all these other categories, and specifically best picture, you know, it seems that right now the easier time you're gonna have getting into these supporting races. Um when we got nominated for Sinners, um We collect that pretty early, too. And Tayana got an iron from butt one bat after another. And the other thing I was gonna say that was kind of remarkable here is that we couldn't really find too many instances where Warner Brothers got three performances from three different movies from three different movies into one single acting category. Yeah, and so Warner Brothers did really well in this category. I think it's it's a breakthrough to get um all three of them nominated. Um, we had hopes at the very last minute that Regina Hall could be.
SPEAKER_04:I hopes, high hopes that our queen, Regina Hall, would get in. You know, she's um she's uh been in the industry for many decades. Um has a small part and one bad after another, but it's still very potent. She's great in the film.
SPEAKER_02:It's bigger than Isabella Rossellini's in Conclave. Well, it says as much as Isabella Rossalini's.
SPEAKER_04:Um uh and we thought, well, if there's gonna be a double nomination, why wouldn't it be in supporting actress for Regina? One bad after another.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Um, unfortunately, that never took off and we didn't predict her at the very end, and that broke our hearts. Um But we thought she could surprise that the final nail in the coffin was again Regina missing that SAG nomination. Because if there stood to be a chance that two actresses from one bite after another were going to show up at the Oscars, it would have shown its teeth there at the SAG, and it did not.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I I was really disappointed with it because I know I've you know there's so many actors that have gotten um support here in these supporting acting categories. I really thought Regina Hall could do it, and we were sort of thinking in parallel terms for someone like Delroy Lindo, which we'll speak about later, um, but did surprise, and so it was it was really disappointing. We had another major theme was can one battle after another break um 14 nominations or or or get to 14 nominations. Um we thought that Regina Hall would be sort of instrumental in that happening, but that's back when we didn't really figure it into races like production design. Um, there was again, we've we were really early on the idea of can one battle after another um get the most acting nominations ever ever. And unfortunately, I I think we saw that they resisted that.
SPEAKER_04:They resisted that I think they said, I'm not sure that I want to nominate a film for five acting nominations. Yes, and I you know I'll go further. And because we're gonna talk about the other bigger snub, you know, being uh Chase Infinity. So I really felt that they felt strongly, at least this version of the Academy right now is not in the let's give a film five nominations. Right. We can give it four, you know, like we've seen, you know, repeatedly, you know, over the last several years, and you got four this year with sentimental value. But five is not something we're willing to do. And let let's not even talk about six, right? Right. So um, yeah, but I feel like that was one of the sadder things that we wanted to be proven wrong and we wanted to see Regina's Regina Hall's name there, right? Along, she's very deserving, she's wonderful in one bite after another, she deserves this recognition. I the cynical part of me thinks that if it had been a different actor, maybe maybe she does get in.
SPEAKER_00:Maybe.
SPEAKER_04:Um uh as cynical as that sounds, I can't help but think it.
SPEAKER_02:And again, it's probably because a lot of voters don't know her for her dramatic work, her dramatic work, or even her work in independent films. You know, that most of them either don't know her work overall or know her more for her populist films.
SPEAKER_04:She deserved her flowers, but I will say there's one tiny silver lining, and I think we see it differently. Right. The tiny silver lining that I see is that while I'm disappointed severely that Regina Hall did not get nominated for one better after another, I will say that in a way the Chase Infinity snub for Best Actress made it a little bit less stinging. Because if I'm Regina Hall and I'm seeing that all my co-stars got nominated, minus I, minus me, right, you know, number one, I can't help but think that you're gonna take that somewhat personal. Right. You know, or at least you can't help but get in your feelings about it because it sucks.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_04:You're basically telling everyone was worthy except me.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You know, you found room from everyone but me. Right. So in a way, it makes it a little less, you know, emphatic. Right. You know, you're the one that is not worthy. Right. Everyone else is. And the other thing that I liked, well, I don't want to say liked, but the other thing that made it the blow a little less hard was that in nominating both Chase Infinity and Tiana Taylor for their first Academy Award nominations, and if you look at their filmographies, they're limited. Right. Because Teana Taylor starts off as a as an as a singer, I believe, in the RB field. Chase Infinity, this is her first film. If I'm Tayana Taylor, if I'm Regina Hall and I'm seeing that Teyana Taylor, well, you know, with few credits, is getting this moment, and Chase Infinity on her first feature is getting this moment. And I've been working decades and I'm not getting Dilly Squat. Right, I'm also gonna take that harsh. You know, I'm it's also gonna, you know, affect me a little bit, at least a little bit. Right. So, and only Tayana Taylor being able to do it because the part is just that good, right? And she's just that great in it, you know, it to me is so it softens the blow a little bit.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know why, but I also want to make it sort of I I guess I wanna paint the idea that maybe something that heard Regina Hall and Chase Infinity is that the performances that got nominated have a little bit more their time is a little bit more concentrated, if that makes sense. Like I think that's a good point. That's something where Tayana really stands out. Yeah, is in really she dominates at first. She's essentially the lead for the first 20-25 minutes of the movie. Yeah, right. Um, it's essentially her movie. Um, so I do wonder if that's sort of a factor. Um that's a really good point. Even for those other performances, they do have this more concentrated element about them. Um, it's kind of funny because in a in a sad, again, in a sort of really bittersweet, sad way, Chase Infinity and Regina Hall share a lot of moments together and share a lot of their best moments together. And so that's really kind of disappointing too.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, but I will say, and we're gonna we'll talk about when we get to actors. I I I have a a theory besides newness as to why Chase Infinity got snubbed. But for Regina Hall, it's hard to see that it wasn't just about you're not in it enough. Right. Or I don't know you enough, or I don't know you enough. But again, if it were a different actor, yeah, maybe she gets in. And also, as we just saw last year, eight minutes was enough for some people.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You know, it's just not enough this time.
SPEAKER_02:I think all we have is the hope that Regina Hall will get nominated for another really worthy performance.
SPEAKER_04:You know, I you know, again, it's one of the sadder things, and it's it it's along those lines that we were talking about at the beginning of these inconsistencies that we, you know, uh are you know can't help but feel kind of heartbroken by. You know, it's it's yeah, it's it's not, it's it's unfortunate.
SPEAKER_02:I will say that over at the BAFTA, Odessa as young continued her late. That would have convinced me that she was gonna get an honor. She got an honor from Marty Supreme, as did Inga for Sentimental Value, Wound Me for Sinners, uh, Tiana Taylor for one battle. Emily Watson did end up getting into the as you had suspected. There are six spots here, and so they gave the final spot to Carrie Mulligan for the ballot of Wallace Island.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, um, which I think uh goes to show that I think there weren't a lot of people that they were passionate about.
SPEAKER_02:But again, I to me it's about visibility because this is the same BAFTA that included Tessa Thompson on the long list for a head up, but did not include Nina Haas, which again, if you watch the film, is a little very strange decision. Very weird.
SPEAKER_04:Um, but yeah, yeah, and you know, you know, we'll be talking about winners at a later date, but I want to say, and this will be the first time, this isn't the first time we've mentioned it, we'll mention it more. Um, do not sleep on Wumi Musaku for Sinners. Yeah, especially the day that Sinners had, you know, um, with breaking the records, uh getting three acting nominations, it's possibly going to win the SAG award, you know, in the event that it goes empty-handed, expect some surprise wins, empty-handed in the sense that it doesn't win best pictures, expect some surprise wins for sinners. There's a lot of love for it, clearly. And Woon Me Mosaku, if you have issues giving it to Amy Madigan for weapons, if you're not crazy about Tayana Taylor's prickly character in one battle after another, guess what? You got Woon Me Mosaku right there for sitters. And she's great.
SPEAKER_02:I I really do think that there is a very good chance that Woon Me turns the title on this um at the SAGs. Yes.
SPEAKER_04:And and if it happens, you heard it here first. Yeah. Um, let's move on to Best Supporting Actor. There was one big snub here, but as we said, you know, I couldn't help but feel really vindicated because we talked about it a lot in our last podcast. The nominees were Benisha Little Toro for one battle after another, Jacob Alordi for Frankenstein, Delroy Lindo for Sitters, Sean Penn for one battle after another, and Stellan Sigarsgard for sentimental value. And the big surprise here is that Dalroy Lindo did make the list. Finally. We told y'all finally we told you all that a list that included both Paul Mescoll for his second nomination after just being included for After Sun a couple years ago, and another actor, same age range, getting his first moment, you know, very known for being in heartthrob, getting his moment finally in Frankenstein, Jacob Alorty. There was something off about that. That is that is not the typical, that's not the typical supporting average. We see we're missing some veteran blood here besides Sean Penn. Right and Stan's car. Well, I mean, we do have enough veterans, but but it's felt like a it felt like a wrong list from the get-go to have both Jacob Ballorty and um Paul Meskel in. It's just too much. It's just too much.
SPEAKER_02:And again, you can't and and part of it that doesn't help is just the idea that everyone is really, I think in the industry, really aware those two actors aren't going anywhere. In fact, their parts are just going to get bigger.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And so sidelining one of them at the very least is not going to be that detrimental. And so there's also just too the too little time between nominations for Palmas goals. Way too little. And I had discussed this ever since I saw it with you. Like, I'm not sure Palmas is going to get in.
SPEAKER_04:And on top of that, like it took some, it took some convincing for me, but as as as the year waned, I really was uh, you know, on but I will say at the beginning I thought because I thought he was going to be the only young presence in the list. Right, right. Until Jacob picked up a lot of steel. Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I but I I think another thing that we saw um play out here is the bias against Shakespeare. I I I I really believe that's a thing. I really do. Um Shakespeare does not have luck in this category. Yeah. For playing Shakespeare. And it's going to be.
SPEAKER_04:I will say if Paul Masco had not been nominated for Afterson.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah. No, no, no. That's a nominated.
SPEAKER_04:He might even get nominated over Jacob Ballorty if it was a tight race between the two of them. Absolutely. But the fact that he the fact that he had been nominated for Aftersun made this a list that made no sense. Right. I will say that if I had been free to do what I wanted to do, I I would have put Daroy Lindo on the list because you know, let's get into it. There is, and we talked about in the last episode. How are you gonna tell me that a veteran like Daroy Lindo, who's never been nominated, he's in his 70s, he's been working for decades, right? And you're not gonna spotlight him. Okay, you just snubbed him bigly for you know the five bloods. Yeah. Okay, you didn't like the movie, you didn't see it, Spike Lee had just been there, okay, fine. But you're gonna tell me you're gonna snub Daroy Lindo, who's been in the decade, who's been in the entertainment industry for decades, and he's in an Austrian favorite, like Sitters. Yeah, that made no sense. And then you're gonna tell me it's gonna be for Paul Mesko's second nomination, right? Or Jacob Alorty's first. That made no damn sense. Yeah, you know, that made no freaking sense. Yeah, so I felt so sure that Darwin Lindo was gonna happen, but we had to resist predicting him because I think we were at odds. I I thought maybe it was gonna be Jacob Alordi and not Paul Mesko. You thought it could be Paul Mesko, but also we had such good odds on Paul Mesko that we couldn't let go of him. We couldn't let go of him. Right. Uh we had him 100 to 1.
SPEAKER_02:But uh but I think this is now Delroy's second film and best picture because he was in the side of house rules. He is given the material in the movie. Um, to me, the more disappointing thing is they I believe they didn't nominate him for the SAG, but was he no? I mean, for the for Synerge, remember they nominated Miles.
SPEAKER_04:Um oh you mean individually?
SPEAKER_02:He's nominated as an ensemble. Yeah, he did not nominate him individually and they nominated Miles instead.
SPEAKER_04:And something else that added fuel to this idea that I was saying that that how are you gonna tell me uh amidst all this that I'm saying, on top of that, right? SAG voters found a spot for Miles Caden?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, exactly. And then but I also believe that they did not nominate Del Royal Lindo for lead actor for divine. They didn't, they didn't, and so to me, it's sort of like he's after all that, he's still gonna get an iron for an individual sag. Like this was his Jamie Lee Curtis, everything everywhere, all at once kind of moment. Um, they just they screwed it up and they didn't nominate him at the sag, like he was supposed to be nominated. Yeah, um, which is which is unfortunate. Um, but it's glad I'm happy to see that um that he was able to make that up and still pick up the offer.
SPEAKER_04:But but I also want to say, you know, we and we talk about this every year, and we just talked about in supporting actress, the glaring inconsistency, inconsistencies of it all, you know, is bothersome. Like, you know, you could be big fans of a lot of people on this list, a lot of people who are included in the acting categories, just to mention this list. Jacob Alori is receiving his first nomination at 28. Right. Paul Mesco received his first nomination at what 25? Right. This is Delroy Lindell's first nomination at 73 people. That's crazy. That's crazy. Yeah. And so when you look at that, how can you not get disappointment?
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_04:You know, like how does it look fair? How does it how does it look fair at all? Yeah, you know, and then you're gonna say, or some people might say, well, it's about the work and the performances. It's not unfortunately about that, it's about being in the right movie in the right time, and certain other machinery in the background gets to decide what is the right movie and what is the right time. Yeah, 100%. You know, that's just the truth. And so when you look at those glaring consistencies, it can't help but feel kind of heartbreaking. I'm so happy he got this moment. Yeah, me too. Even if we didn't predict it correctly, yeah, he deserves this moment. I feel opposite to you. I don't think he has that much material in the movie. I think that's one reason, a big reason that he doesn't get nominated at SAG because Milka has the better part. My own Caden has the better material, and I don't think it's like slightly. I think in the ensemble, he again, a lot of his uh a lot of his part is kind of comedic relief. You know, he kind of disappears in sections. He doesn't have this like dramatic, emphatic moment, not the way that Uumi Mosaku has it, and maybe even you could argue um Michael B. Jordan at the end of Centers. He doesn't have that. So even when I saw the film the first time, I thought it's gonna be tough. I only see him getting in if they're all gonna get in, which is what happened.
SPEAKER_02:I I do feel like Miles has the better part. He has the Stephanie Shu part, um, where Delroy has the Jamie Lee Curtis part, but I do feel like they wrote for him specifically, you know, in that. Scene where they're driving past the chain gang, and then he has that wonderful moment with Miles, and and they talk about um the mythology they share with music, and so I do feel like he had the material. And so after seeing it, I thought in my gut, yeah, it's gonna be very difficult to say no to Devil Lindo for this. Um, if he had gone to that Sog nomination, I would have been like all for it. Right. Um, but it's it's that it's the Miles Cadent inclusion and the Del Rolindo snub that really confused me as to whether it could happen or not. But we did sort of sniff out the idea that he could really surprise. And you're right, I'm I'm I'm I'm really happy he's on this list.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Um, so let's see. Uh for best actress in a leading role, you know, there was one very surpr very surprising omission here and one surprising inclusion. And that is, well, did you read who the nominees were for supporting actor at the BAFTA?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, excuse me, yes. Um, just so we have an idea. The BAFTA went um Benesia LaToro one battle after another, Sean Penn one battle after another, Silence Garsgard, Sentimental Value, Jacob Alordi, Frankenstein, Paul Meskell for Hamnet, um, which is not surprising, British production. Um, and then Peter Mullen for I swear. And so they they still did not nominate Delroy, but I do think that a big um sort of resurgence for us, um, to the idea that Delroy could break in was his inclusion on the long list. Right. Right. So that already felt like that's something that Regina Hall could not muster. Right.
SPEAKER_04:And so that was already significant, or all fanning, even right. Um, for best actress and the leading role, the nominees were Jesse Buckley, Hamnet, Rose Byrne. If I had legs, I'd kick you. Kate Hudson for Song Sung Blue, Renata Reinesville for Sentimental Value, and Emma Stone for Begonia. The big snub here being Chase Infinity. Instead, we get Kate Hudson. And, you know, we've talked about this, we've talked about this for a while. This category we felt needed a real life figure. Some people could argue that Jesse Buckley technically is that, even though, you know, she's called Agnes in the film and not Anne Hathaway. Um, uh, maybe you could interpret that as a real life figure, possibly. We thought Amanda Seyfried had a great shot, uh, a great a great chance at being the uh real life figure for the Testament of Ann Lee that went nowhere. Um, and then I told you a while back, I said, listen, watch out for Kate Hudson, uh, who's playing a real life figure in a film that, you know, has a sort of accessibility to it. We know people in the industry who are responding to it. Um, and she has, you know, no secret, you know, Goldie Hahn's daughter. Yeah. Um, she's already a past nominee, and she's playing a part that obviously can be attention-calling for certain actors, you know, in that you know, the character, the actor, I mean, the the real life figure goes through a tragic, traumatic event, has to sort of overcome it. Um unfortunately, it is the weakest of the group. Um and by a wide margin, I would say. Right, right. And you know, I will say that I'm I think most people are surprised by how far Kate Hudson has made it because not only that, she got an honor for the BAFTA as well. Right. Uh so she did not. I mean, it just goes to show you. I hope everyone sees with these nominations when they come out. Critics groups, they don't matter. You know, it doesn't matter that you won 200 critics groups. If you got the sag and you got the BAFTA, you got a mighty potent combination. Right. And that alone can be enough. Right. Uh Globe SAG BAFTA. That alone can be enough. And so she's playing a real life figure. I told you to watch out for her. You didn't want to believe me. You know, um, people were saying that this was like the NIAD nomination, you know, where Annette Benning got it. Do not like Annette Bennington. But you mentioned it in the you mentioned it previously when we were talking one day. You said, you know, we're missing a clunker here.
SPEAKER_02:Like the chances of it being an uh uh uh at one point you were saying this list could potentially be Hamnet, Sentimental Value, Bugonia, but had like Zed Kick You and Testament of An Lee. Would you want to all-time early time I love or Hedda, and I would like to that's too good. Like those movies are too much. Yeah, we need a where's the clumpy movie? Right. They were really trying to make Julia Roberts happen for after the hunt, but instead we get Kate Hudson. I think a couple of things that we learned here is it's important to have a real person. Um, there weren't that many reality. Don't discredit real life, real life people, and so I think that was her her secret weapon. I mean, focus features gets in here three times. I will say that focus features campaigned the shit out of Kate Hudson. But what's shocking is that they were they campaigned the shit out of her and they were they didn't lose any traction with on Emma Stone. They kept Emma Stone.
SPEAKER_04:So but I think that goes to show the kind of weak field it was. Yeah, but you know, there were at the end there were about six contenders.
SPEAKER_02:Or that maybe they were very smart in the sense that they knew they had the winner, they knew Emma Stone will get in on name alone and project alone. And so really we just have to help Kate Hudson out a little bit. And we have the card here, and the card is real life person.
SPEAKER_04:A hundred percent. And and and sort of an accessible, accessible material, maybe, but I will say when you're seeing Kate Hudson show up award show after award show, even in the ward show she's not nominated in, presenting best actor, right? Come on. You know, listen, they are campaigning the shit out of her, you know, and so we said at the beginning of the podcast, it matters who you have in your corner, it matters who's in your corner, who's pushing the buttons, who's putting you out there, who's uh uh promoting you and running this campaign.
SPEAKER_02:Right, you know, Kate Kate Hudson is perfect proof of that. And so Kate Hudson now matches the nominations of her mother. Oh, that's nice. That's nice. Uh Goldie Hahn has a win um and two nods, and Kate Hudson now has two nods. Um, Hugh Jackman called this nomination early, he called this win early. Let's see if he somehow.
SPEAKER_04:But I want to say, but I want to say even that, even that, and you and I said it to you, I said, watch out. Because when you have Hugh Jackman on a stage saying you're gonna win the Oscar, that doesn't, unfortunately, in the kind of industry we're dealing with, that doesn't go nowhere. You know, that has reverberations, right? And that shows you kind of like the mechanization behind this whole thing. Yeah, you know, we're basically it was a statement saying we're pushing Kate Hudson to get in.
SPEAKER_02:I will say that um Kate Hudson is, I think, the Neppo baby of the 20. She's the she's the Neppo baby, no?
SPEAKER_04:Another thing that we have we have to be real, that helps. That yeah, you know what I mean? And so you I think you weren't looking hard enough at the positive, and and I'll you know what, I'll give you know, I'll I'll be extra hard on you, and I'll say that you also didn't give enough to Annette Betting. And I had to convince you and say, listen, Joseph, Annette Betting is happening. Okay, if Jody Foster is happening, there's no way in hell that Annette Benning is not getting in with her, right? Um, especially after the snub for uh 20th century women. Yeah, so you know, like I said, you weren't paying enough attention. I was writing, at least my excuse is that I was writing on the I was writing on the idea that you just could not snub Chase Infinity because she was in a best picture movie despite the few credits, right? And that Emma Stone and Bugonia, no matter the campaign for Kate Hudson, Bugonia was just obviously that liked because it kept doing better and better than people presumed. So there was just no space for Kate Hudson in my mind.
SPEAKER_02:I think the other thing is that Craig Brewer now gets another performance in because he was able to get Terrence Howard in for um Hustle and Floyd. There's a there's a symmetry to that because that was also the only nomination. That's right. Uh I I I think you're right. Um, I think Chase Infinity, again, no matter how much of a lock we wanted to make her, she was always vulnerable for it being her first role, which to me, again, is a little bit I mean, it depends because it's sometimes it's not vulnerable for other people. That's what I'm saying. That that's what bothers me, right? Is when, you know, Chase Infinity um can't make it into this category, but you know, Ariana Grande can make it in for wicket. That makes sense. That doesn't sit very much.
SPEAKER_04:Doesn't make any sense. Um I will say supporting is easier to get into than lead. You know, there we've talked about in previous episodes, there's uh unfortunately a bias. I think they hold the lead categories at higher esteem. I mean they nominated Kavanje Wallace. Right. Well, I mean Kavanje is great at her movie. I'm not saying that she's not I mean Chase is a very deserving nominator. Chase is great at her movie too, right? But that's that's my point. My point is that I think Chase misses not only because she's new and she has few credits, the deal breaker for Chase was that, and I'm sorry, I agree with it. She is not lead. If you see the film, if you see the film, it's clear that she's not lead. And so while I don't doubt that there were voters that voted for her and voted for her in the lead category, I think there were voters who probably voted for her in the supporting category and she lost votes. Oh, that's interesting, you know, um, because it's just that evident that she's not lead. So when you're trying to sell me an actor who is very is in their debut, okay, for a lead category, and you and I agree there's a bias between lead and supporting, and then you want to sell me that it's a lead performance when what I'm seeing on the screen is not lead. Right. You know, I'd I'd have a hard time picking a lead, and if I picked a lead, it's just Leo. Right. Then then it's too much to ask in a way. Right. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, like it she was destined to lose a lot of people based on that alone. Yeah. I would wager that had she stuck in supporting, we'd still might have seen two supporting actresses from one battle get in, and Chase would have been the second, and we still would have seen Regina left out because of time. Interesting. But Chase Infinity would have gotten in uh based on the category, based on the time, she would have gotten in with Teana.
SPEAKER_02:Interesting theory.
SPEAKER_04:Interesting theory, right? So if you take Chase Infinity out of the equation, honestly, you're just left with Kate Hudson. You know, there's no one else to pick from. Well, I think not really. I mean, I mean, based on their content. I mean, I would have loved Jennifer Lauren, she deserves to be on here, but again, they were never gonna take that film seriously enough.
SPEAKER_02:To me, it just comes down to visibility. Is Kate Hudson in Songsung Blue better than Tessa Thompson and Hedda? No, she's not. Did did one film get the the red carpet treatment and get all these pieces in Hollywood Reporter and Variety and all these other outlets? Yes, and meanwhile, the other movie um barely made it to a theater for about a week and then went straight to streaming. 100%. So it almost makes more sense. Had you put HETA straight into streaming, it probably would have walked out with nine Emmy nominations. Right. Instead, it's gonna walk out with zero um Oscar nominations and it does not have a spot on best actress.
SPEAKER_04:100%. I agree with you. And I think the other bittersweet thing about this list, you know, um, is that Kate Hudson is on her second nomination, and I know we've been focusing a lot on Kate Hudson, but and again, I want to I wanna also repeat that she does a good job in the film.
SPEAKER_02:I I feel like it's been a while since we've seen Kate Hudson on screen to begin with, uh, much less on screen with the meaty part.
SPEAKER_04:But I I I I'll push back a little bit there because I think one reason that we're so passionate about it is because she's not bad in the film, but it's not something that I would nominate. It's not something that I think is deserving of a nomination. I think you feel the same way. I think there are several other contenders that merited that position uh before Kate Hudson. And again, I think there's a lot of other factors at play for why she was able to manage that nomination. But what I was gonna say is that it's bittersweet in a way, because Kate Hudson gives an iconic performance in Almost Famous, right? Her first nomination, right, right, which I think the entire universe would have been happy if she won for that, you know. Um except the Academy, because they said no. Right, right. But I'm saying that first nomination is one of the best nominations, right? Because she's so fucking great in that movie, and it's the kind of performance where honestly no one else could have done that film, that moment better than Kate Hudson. It was kind of her call to, you know, fame in a way, but what a deserving nomination, right? What a deserving recognition. And for me, it's a little bittersweet that her second one can't feel the same way, right? You know, the same way that I think some people felt about Annette Betting, which is you know, I love Annette Betting, right? She's amazing. I'm happy in everything. Well, she's amazing. Point she's one of our greatest. But a lot of people felt like it's kind of bittersweet that we couldn't get this moment for 20th century woman, which you know, she could have she could have won for that, and people would have been happy. Yeah, you know, so I think there's something bittersweet about that that I think is a repeating narrative in the Oscars, which is, you know, a lot of times when you land, you don't necessarily land for your best.
SPEAKER_02:And and I think also what I'll say is like one thing that frustrates me is just that idea of like the filmography doesn't sustain it. And so to me, it's like a little bit like Adrian Bodie last year. Does his does his filmography sustain two Oscar wins? No, it does not. You know, like circumstances worked out in his favor, and circumstances worked out in Kate Hudson's favor. But if I were to ask you, what are your five favorite Kate Hudson performances? Why do I feel like you're gonna have trouble coming up with that list?
SPEAKER_04:No, I got that.
SPEAKER_02:Same thing where if I were to ask you, well, what are your top five favorite Adrian Brody performances? Right, you know, and so that's and it's not saying that they're not talented actors. Oh, no, no, not at all. Right. Not at all. It's just it could be a mix of circumstance, it could be a mix of priorities, it could be a mix of focus. Right. What I'm saying is I can give you a list of my five favorite Daryl Lindell performances, you know what I mean? Uh and so you have these two actors on their second, Daryl Lindell was in his 70s and he just got his first. And if they had somehow decided that Sinners is not a best picture movie, then Daryl Lindell would not have been nominated.
SPEAKER_04:100% exactly. So very uh split reactions to best actress in a leading role. Um, the nominees for best actor in a leading role are the opposite. They were the favorites to get in. Right. The nominees were Timothy Chalamet for Marty Supreme, Leo DiCaprio for one bad after another, Ethan Hawk for Blue Moon, Michael B. Jordan for Sinners, and Wagner Moore for The Secret Agent. Those were the five that were favorite to favored to get in. Another bona fide real person here with Lawrence Hart and Blue Moon, Marty Hawk's performance. Um Marty Supreme is loosely based, you know. Yeah, we're calling that like we're doing that like with the um Hamnet movie. Yeah. Um, I will say that unfortunately, because this actor race was so tight, that last spot really felt like a race between Michael B. Jordan for Sinners and Joel Edgerton for Train Dreams. Two actors were the Golden Globe. Right. Two actors that, you know, are have been deserving of their flowers for some time. And it was just sad to see that one of them was destined to be left out. I think anyone who thought they would both get in was smoking crack. Right. There was just no, there was just no way that they both were going to get in in this list. People um were had mentioned the idea of Jesse Plemens, and he did well at SAG. I will say that Jesse Plemens is my favorite performance by a male actor this year. He's amazing in Bugodia, one of his best.
SPEAKER_02:That's a little bit more bittersweet too, because of how the how the day ended up, right?
SPEAKER_04:Right, right. Right. Um, and so he missed out, but I think he was very clearly number seven. Right. This was really a race between who could get that fifth, uh, Joel or Michael. And if you had known that Sinners was destined to break 16, was break into 16 nominations, how the hell did they not nominate Michael B. Jordan?
SPEAKER_02:And they were pretty close because you and I had talked about that idea that Michael really breaks through with a movie like Fruit Bell Station with Ryan, and then Joel is possible possibly breaking through with the nominated film Animal Kingdom that saw Jackie Weaver get nominated for supporting actors. That's in 2010. And so it's kind of sad that it came down to probably one or one or one of the two of them. Um, obviously, Cinners, the more favorite film. Um, and um Michael, you know, as the lead in that film, I think um carried so much of the responsibility. So it was kind of hard to see them saying no to him. Um, I will say that you and I started sniffing out some issues when Joel Edgerton missed the SAG nomination in favor of Jesse Plemens, even though Jesse Plemens didn't have like an individual nomination on the film side, so it made sense. They did not nominate for Power of the Dog. I think it would only have become more clear to us had we seen the BAFTA first, because the BAFTA list included uh Robert Aramyo for I Swear, Timothy Chalamet, Maure Supreme, Leo DiCaprio, one bet after another, Ethan Hawk, Blue Moon, Michael B. Jordan Cinners, and lastly, Jesse Plemens for Bugonia. But keep in mind that Wagner Moore did not make the shortlist. Yes, he didn't even make the shortlist, but thank God he got the Golden Globe nomination. Otherwise, it may be out and it would be Joel Edgerton instead of Wagner Moore. Um, but it just goes to show you how close Jesse Plemens possibly came because not only was he a Golden Globe Sag Bath nominee, but as we were alluding to a little a little a little minute a minute ago, um Bagoni is the best picture nominee. Yeah, you know, and his co-star is right there, yeah, right. She got nominated. Um, and so it's kind of I think a little bit bittersweet in the sense that it kind of crystallizes how close Jesse Plemmens came to getting that nomination.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and he absolutely deserves that again. He's my favorite. Um, I know he's gonna be here again. Oh, yeah, and it's always a little less defeating when they've already at least received some recognition. So that that's all that always helps. But um I think again, Emma Stone benefited from a weaker category.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and the question is what does Joel have to do to get in? And the answer is probably be Joel is the actor that I feel bad for.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Because I feel like how can you not take this omission, you know, after you know, so many years of work and your film is not for Rust Picture, right? And not feel like, you know, I guess I'm just not good enough yet to make it, you know, and that's not the truth because uh, you know, there's so much more at play here, like the the race and and and uh Michael B. Jordan with the tough decision to make, but when you receive that kind of feedback, oh you know, my film is not for best picture, I'm still not able to get in despite working my ass off. You can't help but feel, you know, disappointed.
SPEAKER_02:I still think it's not like loving, where uh Ruth Nega was the only nomination for that film. Um and it's not like loving in the sense that he played a real character in loving, and that was sort of going for him as well. And so I think you're right, it is a little bittersweet.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Um, but I will say that I think um Ethan Hawk did something really lovely when they asked him about how he felt about the nominations, and I'm gonna butcher the quote, but I think he said something along the lines of you know, I've spent so many days, so many uh moments in my life in days like this where I did not receive the nomination, and I thought maybe there was a chance that I would. And you know, how kind of bit how bittersweet and disappointing that is. And so today my thoughts are with all those people who kind of were hoping that their moment would land them an Oscar nomination and and and did not. And I thought that was just so what a class act, what a beautiful uh sentiment, what a lovely man, what an incredible actor. You know, it makes me that much more excited as if I could be any more excited that Ethan Hawk is getting a moment, his first nomination in the lead acting category. He should have already been here for first reform. He's the darkest of horses, we've said, uh, to beat Timothy Chalamet at the SAG and to possibly be his biggest competition callster time. Um, but I just thought that was such a lovely sentiment.
SPEAKER_02:Spoken like a genuine writer, I have to say. Um really, really heartfelt on moving to hear that from Ethan Hawk. Um, great to see him here. First nomination in the lead category, and I have a suspicion that this category is going to get tighter and tighter as the weeks passed. Um, as the weeks passed. Um, Timothy Chalamet, youngest actor to three, I believe now. Since pretty, pretty since Brando. Brando. Is that it? Since Brando?
SPEAKER_04:I believe that's a statistic.
SPEAKER_02:And um, he gets um all three uh leading acting nominations. Um, I'm not sure Marlon Brando. Got all three of his first uh nominations in the league category. I'd have to double check that. Um, but so so obviously the favorite Timothy Chalamet. We'll see how the race evolves. Um, but yeah, sad not to see Joe Ederton there.
SPEAKER_04:And uh for best director, we had Chloe Zhao for Hamnet, Josh Safty for Marty Supreme, Paul Thomas Edison for one battle after another, Joaquin Trier for Sentimental Value, and Ryan Kugler for Sinners.
SPEAKER_02:And this was a tough race. Uh, some uh and uh directors who got left off. Um Kimonutoro couldn't get back in for Frankenstein, despite being one of the more senior directors um this season, right? Uh yeah, I haven't hasn't been back since Shape of Water has been in Best Picture twice since then, and Frankenstein seemed like it was gonna be a bigger thing. Granted, had we seen the BAFTA list ahead of time, maybe we would have had a better idea that he was gonna struggle because he did not make the BAFTA long list. Frankenstein in general did not have a great day at BAFTA, and so that might have been a tip off a tip off. Um, great to see Chloe Zhao here. We had our doubts because usually this branch has been siding with welcoming new directors, and she's coming fresh off a couple of Oscar wins for Nomad Land. Right. So we had our suspicions.
SPEAKER_04:We felt very confident that she would miss.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, but we did have that debate as to like can they really snub Paul Mesko for Hamnet and Chloe Zhao for Hamlet.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, we said that it had to be one guy.
SPEAKER_02:So as soon as we saw Paul Mesko get snubbed, we're kind of like, okay, well, Chloe Jal has to get out of there, or people are gonna riot. Right. Um, uh great to see Ryan Kugler get his first nomination. Paul Thomas Anderson is there. Um, Joaquin Trier uh ended up being nominated, and it was tough because so many of the um international film contenders, the neon four, um they seemed like a uh a good dark horse here, whether it was Kleber for the secret agent and what has, I guess, over the last few weeks um become the the favorite, I think, for foreign film um from Brazil. Um Jafar Panahi, um for our uh it was just an accident, um, and even um Olivier uh uh LaGea um had some fans for Surratt and Surat did so well, um, European Film Award nominee, but it ended up being Joaquim Trier and you were pretty dead set on having on having to include him after the European Film Awards.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, 100%. I think most people were. I think prior to the European Film Awards, people thought it was gonna be Jafar. Again, I was dead set that they were not going to snub Jafar Panahi for best of right now.
SPEAKER_02:Me too. I mean, how how how how do you look yourself in the mirror?
SPEAKER_04:I will say I think that was the one of the most devastating uh snubs for me was Jafar Panahi not getting the director nom. I still am happy he was recognized either way for screenplay. But you know, to have a a cinematic giant like Jafar Panahi get snubbed in, you know, what should have been his moment, the Palm DR winner. I think this is the first time in several years, the trend that we've seen that Palm Dior does really well, well did really bad here, or you know, poorly compared to some other non-POM DR winners. Right. Um, you know, it's sad to see.
SPEAKER_02:One thing that certainly we saw play out at these nominations is the idea that if you're an international film uh contender that's hoping to break out into major awards, most of the time you tend to have a little bit of a breakthrough before you absolutely you know bust through the ceiling. And so, how many Panahi films have been nominated for an Oscar before this? Well, none. Um, Kleber films that have been nominated before this, well, none. But Joachim Trier is fresh out of a huge breakout with Worst Person in the World, which scored an international film mention, his first, as well as a screenplay mention. And so it's only after that initial breakout that you can build some momentum into crashing into these bigger races.
SPEAKER_04:I think that's an excellent point. I wish we had thought about that more.
SPEAKER_02:Even if you look at something like Triangle of Sadness, for example, like Ruben was there for the square in 2017. And so I think that maybe we shouldn't underestimate that factor going forward. Yeah. Um, even if, you know, maybe that, you know, is more important than the quality of the movie and the and the quality of the context and the narrative, right? Because you can't get a better context or narrative than for either of those films, a secret agent, and it was just an accident.
SPEAKER_04:Right. And I think two other things that are worth mentioning is I think that we're still pushback in this category from directors who are very welcoming of foreign filmmakers. But I didn't think they it seemed like they didn't want to list with too many foreign filmmakers. Oh, I know. You know, so in a way it's kind of bittersweet because you we're so used to them making such, you know, incredible decisions of welcoming these foreign auteurs into the fold. But this is a year where we could have seen two or three, and they said one's enough.
SPEAKER_02:It almost makes me, and this is unfortunate by the way, but it almost makes me reconsider those lists that had, um, if I remember correctly, Jonathan Glazer for the zone of interest and Justine Trier for Anatomy of a Fall, um, which is one of the rare instances where you don't have a breakthrough, right, for Justine Trier, or a list that included uh Pavel Polakowski for Cold War and Alfonso Coron for Roma. Jonathan Glazer and Alfonso Coron are not uh foreign entities to that branch. Right. You know, they work on a on a global spectrum. You know what I mean? And so I think maybe part of the issue was that Joachim Trier only really working right in his in his section of the globe. Same thing with Panahi, same thing with Cleaver, right? And so maybe that was a factor that we saw here, that maybe we've been sort of led to believe that they're this um a group of voters, this branch of voters that are really have wide open arms to welcome being multiple international directors, but maybe we've taken for granted that some of these international directors have a strong foothold in American cinema, right? Um and in English language cinema.
SPEAKER_04:Right. And I think the other thing to mention is that Chloe Zao makes the feat of being able to get her second directorial nomination um in the shortest amount of time than any other film female filmmaker who's been there. Uh I think it's only been Jane Campion, I believe. Yeah. And so she's able to accomplish that, I think, in large part because I think where we are at the academy right now, I just think that voters, spectators are not thrilled with the idea of if there is a strong female filmmaker in contention, snubbing her. Yeah. So this is sort of like I think it's important to have that inclusion.
SPEAKER_02:So isn't that sort of the narrative that we're revisiting from 2012 and Catherine Bigelow and the backlash for Burt Locker, right? Right. And so whatever mechanism existed that kept her off that list, the branch has sort of moved forward, right? And sort of said that that mechanism should not exist. Right. And so we're not gonna let that factor in to sidelining Chloe Shao. 100%. Right.
SPEAKER_04:And I think that's what we saw here. It was the Gold Derby five, the favorites. And it was of the DGA, I believe it was four from the DGA. Right, minus Guillermo Toro, and for the BAFTA.
SPEAKER_02:And so the BAFTA nominees um were Paul Thomas Anderson for one battle after another, Ryan Kugler for Sinners, Josh Safty for Marty Supreme, Chloe Zhao for Hamnet, Joaquin Trier for Sentimental Value, and lastly, Yorgos Lanthamos for Bogonia. Um, Bogonia had a pretty good day at BAFTA, which probably would have tipped us off into the last category that we have to talk about, which is Best Picture. So what's it?
SPEAKER_04:And the nominees for Best Picture are Bugonia, F1, Frankenstein, Hamnet, Marty Supreme, One Battle After Another, The Secret Agent, Sentimental Value, Sinners, and Train Dreams. And I believe I'm not mistaken when I say it's the PGA 10.
SPEAKER_02:It's the PGA 10. And so no one really dug a little too deeply for Nickel Boys to get in there. Of course, the Nickel Boys team was even in here with F1. So uh Plan B still got in again. Plan B got in for the least plan B of movies since it's Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice. Um, kind of wonder why Beetlejuice Beetlejuice didn't make it wasn't a bigger factor here. Um, but so yeah, it is the PGA 10, which is anticlimatic, yes, in my opinion. Um, there is no neon 5, there is no neon 4 or neon 3 on this list. There's just a bunch of twos. A neon 2. Um, yes, there's a bunch of twos. Two focus features, two neon two Netflix, the focus features to um the Warner Brothers 2. Um, yeah, I I I don't think it's a terrible list. I do, I do believe it's anticlimatic. I think does F1 have to be there? Um second time a Joseph Kaczynski film gets nominated for Best Picture. We're definitely blazing the path for Joseph Gaczynski to be non-bust director at some point. Let's hope it's for a worthwhile film. I'm not a big fan of Top Gun Maverick, as I've told you, and I and I love Top Gun. Um, and I'm not a big fan of F1, to be perfectly honest. And I did not like Days of Thunder. Um so at the same time, I do think it's the least of the plan B films to ever be known after Best Picture. Um, what else is notable? I mean, Bugonia got in.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, right. I'm happy about that because I love Bogonia, it's one of my favorite films, but I did not expect it to get in.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, even though maybe the BAFTA would have tipped you off a little bit. 100%. Um, even though some some directors, I remember when they nominated Tom Ford for Nocturnal Animals, I think, for the BAFTA, which is a film that I love.
SPEAKER_05:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and it didn't get on me for I think one nomination at the Oscars. So no top um position in Best Picture. Um as we already said it was a historical day for one battle and for sinners. Train Dreams is able to uh get that nomination. The Secret Agent is one of the two foreign films nominated, both of them from Neon. Um, I don't know. I think part of it is the Brazilian moment that's happening right now in cinema, right? Between this year and I'm still here. Yeah, I think that gives it the last little push of momentum. I mean, what are the odds? We have here our our our movie with nine nominations, I believe Sentimental Value, and then we have the four nominations for the secret agent. Um, so we definitely know that if this was any other year or if Brazil wasn't having a moment right now, probably the first film on the chopping block is The Secret Agent, I think, right? Yeah, 100%. I agree with you.
SPEAKER_04:It is anticlimatic. There are some great films here. Um, I don't know. You know, it's a little disappointing because we had in our head what it could have been, yes, with four neon films making the list, and the quality of the neon films, too, right? 100%. That would have been amazing. Um yeah, you know, it's not a bad list. I have my favorites, those being One Battle, um Sentimental Value, The Secret Agent at Bugonia. Are my favorite films from the list? Yours?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I definitely have one film that I think is above all the others, and then one film that I think really demonstrated what the industry can do and sinners. And then I have one film that is just I I can't believe that this film got nominated, and that's and that's F1. And I feel like I think a lot of people share that. I feel like there's gonna be so many worthwhile plan B films from this point into the future for the next five years that are going to pay for this nomination for F1.
SPEAKER_04:And I think everything comes full circle because we mentioned at the beginning of the podcast yet again that you know this machine starts early and it just piles through at Apple from the very beginning, you know, of the year, they said we're gonna make F1 a hit, yeah, and we're gonna get an eye for best picture because it's gonna make a buttload of money.
SPEAKER_02:And there's a bunch of pundits who bought into it and place it there, and it just makes it just makes to me the whole thing like absurd. And it makes it to me, it's like, what's the point if we're gonna like I don't know.
SPEAKER_04:It's all uh to me, it feels like predestined. Yeah, you know, it it takes away the magic a little bit because it's it's it's you know, it's it's predestined to be a certain thing, and you get the thing that you know you kind of it's it's the thing that it was always set out to be.
SPEAKER_02:And it can't really you can't really back it up, can you? Because like, here's where I I feel like not enough people are talking about it. Um I don't think Top Gun Maverick was predestined. I feel like it was a genuine hit that sort of you know, it became a phenomenon and it take and it took over. Okay. Maybe part of this nomination is some leftover resentment that Top Gun Maverick didn't win Best Picture. I have no idea. Um but F1 did not make Top Gun Maverick money. No, not at all, no, not at the US, not at the global level. I'm not saying it didn't make money, it made an impressive amount of money. It just made nowhere near Top Gun Maverick money. And so to me, it also sort of like waters down the achievement that Top Gun Maverick had by breaking into this category anyway.
SPEAKER_05:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and so to also realize that, you know, look at everything that Top Gun Maverick accomplished, including getting an iron for screenplay um of all things. Um F1 couldn't do that, but it could still get a best picture nomination.
SPEAKER_04:Um it feels very like it almost feels like cut and paste for um yeah, in general, but also uh 4v Ferrari. Yeah, you know, race movie gets two sound nominations, an editing, and picture.
SPEAKER_02:And again, I mean Top of Gun Maverick is not about racing, but I'm saying of the three films, 4v Ferrari is the best screenplay between the three of them, and it did not get nominated for screenplay, right? Right. Um but F1 exactly near the F1, rightly so. I mean, the screenplay is not good. Um, but F1 for all the money it made more money internationally than domestically by far. And with all that, it couldn't even really make the BAFTA long list for Best Picture, right? You know what I mean? So I I just really don't know who was passionate enough to put this movie in the top 10 besides someone who did just simply did not watch enough movies or does not take enough movies seriously. I think that that's the answer.
SPEAKER_04:I think the answer is, you know, and again, it's and we learn this every year, you know, the you know, bittersweet revelation of you know who this academy is. Right, you know, if I have to choose between F1 and uh foreign language film, I don't want to see foreign films, I don't want to see too many of them here, I don't want to see subtitles when I watch films, right? I'm gonna pick F1. Yeah, you know, I might not pick Avatar and Wicked, but I'll still pick F1 over another choice. Right. I'll pick F1 over um it was just an accident. Right. You know, and it's it's disappointing.
SPEAKER_02:But I will say, like, if you're a voter and you decided, yeah, I guess I'm gonna pick F1, I would really love to have that voter, you know, sit in front of an audience and explain why that vote went to F1 and not weapons, both films that made the PGA 10. So, so um I believe the one film to get screwed out of the PGA 10, because it's not exactly the list, is Weapons Get Screwed Out for the Secret Agent. That's right. And I understand why the secret agent is able to edge it out. My question is so why F1 and not weapons? Right. Is it only because we can't take the genre seriously? Right. Is it because it didn't make as much money internationally? Because relative to the expense, it might have done better. Right. You know what I mean? Right. Um, maybe because you feel like I really need a movie on there that's a tentpole movie that I'm advertising on McDonald's and at a sporting event, and weapons is not that movie. Um, even though you could have done a really mean crossover with Wendy's weapons. Um, but so to me, that's you know, that's the part that's kind of annoying and disappointing.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, 100%. I agree with you. It's a mixed bag, it always is some highlights, some lowlights. Yeah. Um, that's the way it is every year, but still, this is still the funner part of this whole awards reason awards race. Now we get to the more boring part. You know, are is anyone really doubting that Jesse Bulke is gonna win best actress? I mean, that's crazy, you know. Um, I think is anyone doubting that Stan Skarskar is gonna win for sentimental value? I think that's crazy. I know some people are gonna say possibly, but guys, it's gonna be Stan Skarskar.
SPEAKER_02:Let's just hope that the awards ceremonies at, for example, the SAG maybe can make things a little bit interesting with the win for Wound Me or maybe a win for Benicio. But other than that, I think you're right. Um, this next phase is really between one or two people, and uh, we'll see if anything interesting develops. I mean, I will say that part two, phase two is never without its own kind of little bubbles of excitement.
SPEAKER_04:I will say but we also didn't mention, did we mention the BAFTA five for Best Picture?
SPEAKER_02:Well, the BAFTA five for Best Picture were the DGA five sub out Frankenstein, which had a terrible day and put in Sentimental Value. And again, that would have been a tip off that that sort of backed up the D the PGA 10 nomination for Sentimental Value, and so it would have really, I think, affirmed that it was gonna do well here.
SPEAKER_04:That sentimental value is a top five film.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um, I think the other thing to sort of learn from here is that for the most part, if you're an international film that does not do well at BAFTA, it's gonna be very hard to capitalize and then do well at the Oscars. I think uh Secret Agents is able to do it, but only Secret Agent. Right. Um, it was just an accent's night able to do it, and certainly not Surratt. Um, but you know, um again, phase two is not without its little uh moments of excitement or um interesting turns. Um, you know, and as we're recording this episode, there's a little bit of uh discussion online about some uh controversy um and revelation as to the rift um that perhaps played uh the rift um between the Safety brothers, where it may have originated from. Um, and we won't get into it into this episode, but we'll be monitoring it as the story develops. And if it becomes something to discuss um as it pertains to Oscar nominations and outcomes, we'll be we'll be revisiting it.
SPEAKER_04:Certainly it has the potential of derailing certain campaigns.
SPEAKER_02:Certainly, yeah. I mean, if anyone if anyone covering this is itching for uh Carl, Carlos Sofia Gascon, Fernando Torres, sort of controversial moment, this this may be it. So we'll see if this has legs.
SPEAKER_04:Um a hundred percent. We'll I'm I'm curious to see what happens there. If you haven't heard about the story, um uh check it out. We'll talk about more on our next podcast. And uh that's it for this episode. Yeah, and it's been really nice to have this deep dive with all of you. Thank you for joining us on this journey of phase one. And we look forward to phase two. We look forward to phase two, and as always, it's been a pleasure.
SPEAKER_02:If you've been enjoying the Academy Anonymous podcast and want to support the work we're doing, there's a voluntary support link in the show notes. Totally optional. Just a way to help us keep the podcast going. Thank you for listening.
SPEAKER_04:The music on this episode, entitled Cool Cats, was graciously provided by Kevin McLeod and Incompitech.com. Licensed under Creative Commons by attribution three point zero. HTTP calling forward slash forward slash Creative Commons dot org forward slash licenses forward slash by forward slash three point zero.
SPEAKER_02:Disclaimer. The Academy Anonymous Podcast is in no way affiliated or endorsed by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. Doing there's a voluntary support link in the show notes. Totally optional. Just a way to help us keep the podcast going. Thank you for listening.
SPEAKER_04:The music on this episode, entitled Cool Cats, was graciously provided by Kevin McCloud and in Compatech.com.