Oscars 2026 Post-Mortem: PTA Reigns, Chalamet Stalls — and the Future of the Academy

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On this episode of ACADEMY ANONYMOUS:

We break down all the biggest moments, surprises, and controversies from this year’s Oscars ceremony — from PTA’s big night to the most shocking upsets.

• Thoughts on the ceremony: Conan O’Brien, questionable decisions, and an ambitious In Memoriam
• The biggest surprises of the night
• Autumn Durald Arkapaw makes history for Sinners
• How Mr. Nobody Against Putin pulled off a shocking Best Documentary win
• A rare tie in Live-Action Short — how did that even happen? Plus: we called the Animated Short upset
• The Supporting Actress aftermath: why Amy Madigan prevailed over Teyana Taylor and Wunmi Mosaku
• Timothée Chalamet’s stalled awards run — and whether overexposure or controversy played the biggest role
• Michael B. Jordan emerges as the undeniable crowd favorite
• The bittersweet victory for Warner Bros.
• PTA is king: Paul Thomas Anderson’s legacy in the Oscar conversation

Plus: what this ceremony tells us about where the Academy is headed — and what’s next as we look ahead to Cannes.

Season 2 finale — signing off (for now).

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Welcome, listeners, to a new episode of the Academy Anonymous podcast where we're covering the Oscars. The Oscars took place a little while ago, so we're just going to do our annual post-mortem episode and go over all the major highlights. Um, I'm your co-host, Joseph.

Highs and Lows - Conan O'Brien, In Memoriam, Cut Speeches, and Snubbed Songs

SPEAKER_02 0:30

And I'm Jules, and thank you all for joining us. Um, before we start, just really quick, make sure to check out our website, framesinflicker.com and our Twitter at Academy Anon. They're both posted on the cover art. And um, yeah, let's do the uh postmortem for the telecast that happened last weekend. Um I think there's a few things to unpack. You know, I think one of the things that sticks out well, first let's talk about this, the ceremony itself. Um uh Conan O'Brien, yeah, you know, it's his second year hosting. Right. You know, I'm a little bit iffy. I don't I don't think Conan O'Brien is the best host. Like when Jimmy Kemo came out for that brief moment, it kind of, you know, remind you know, it made me miss Jimmy Kemo a little bit, who I thought was a very good host. Um, I think some of the comedy bits worked. Um I wasn't a big fan of the first the the uh the opening, the opening video with uh Weapons and the kids. Um, you know, uh it kind of definitely uh revealed, I think, really early on that we were gonna be wrong about our best supporting actress when uh when Amy Madigan and Weapons got such a spotlight. Right. Um and Amy Madigan right now is the number one most looked at actor on IMDB. You know, they're in the ranking. She's number one. Yeah, she's a little wow. Yeah, she is. Wow. Uh, which is crazy. It's incredible the story of the the journey that that film and that performance uh took throughout award season.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

Um just goes to show that, you know, of course, early on things are gonna be off, but never sleep on those, you know, uh really bright spots that start to happen around mid-year, even maybe possibly even early on ever early in the year. Right. Um, they can have legs if they've got the fans.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Right, right. And also depending on the competition, too, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:19

That's truly true. Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

And we'll talk about supporting actors, but I agree with you. I think that Conan was um not the best choice, but let's be honest, this is a thankless job. There's always a bunch of um criticism and critiques on whoever hosts the ceremony. You could one could argue that no one has ever done a good job, they've just done a good enough job. I mean, I remember those years that Jimmy Kimmel was a host, they were fine. I didn't think they were anything particularly special, but I do think it was a special moment this year when Jimmel when Jimmy Kimmel did come out. Um, and if any year would sort of beg for the presence of Jimmy Kimmel, it would be I agree, I would assume this year. Um, that being said, maybe that was something that um they specifically wanted to avoid, and I'm sure they have their reasons. After all, there was a whole you know Disney Jimmy Kimmel thing anyway. Um, but I agree. Um it was uh it was a it was an okay ceremony.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

Still, you know, gripes about how they cut off speeches. Yes. Um I'm still pretty disappointed that they didn't find room to include all the original songs.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

That's really dumb.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

They only included the uh mega hit Golden and of course Sinners, right? And and the Sinners um sort of you know uh reenactment of that of that very uh important, significant scene in the film, right? I thought it came out nice. Um, but it just sucks. I think it's very low class, I think it's very, you know, uh just poor taste.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

I also think it's a decision that sort of begs for the category's sort of own extinction, if that makes sense. I'm not I've never been a big proponent for this category, but if you as an awards body and as an organization and as a cultural event are going to defend um the importance of this category, then you should back it up by inviting everyone to perform. Um, and that if you don't find a way to make that marketable to your audience, that's really um that's really your problem. You know what I mean? So it's sort of like you you can't be both. You can't say that this category is really important for it to exist and then not invite the other three songs to perform. I think that was really distasteful, and I completely agree with you. And I think they should completely amend that.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Right. And I think this year we were talking about other show, like was lightning speed. Oh, yeah. I felt like the show was went really fast. Um, I still have very fond memories of being a very small kid because we've been doing this a very long time, even if uh Academy Anonymous isn't that old just yet. Right. Um, we have been watching the Oscar since we were itty bitty little things. Um, and I remember that those uh evenings feeling very long with our family, watching the ceremony, not really being sure what was going on. I think one of the first ceremonies that we watched was uh for Titanic, um, because that was a big movie in our childhood, and I think in a lot of people's childhood. Right. Um, but this uh this year's ceremony zipped past, you know, it was so so quick. Maybe it was again that they started at seven. Is that I don't know if that's if that's a new thing.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

I think I think part of it was that, and I think it was a successful move. Seven Eastern time. Yeah, seven Eastern time. I think that's a successful move, and I think they should continue to do that, in my opinion. That's how I feel about that. I think there are other formatting choices that helped, like, for example, and I think they've done it a few years, but like the whole a pair of presenters get a couple of categories instead of every category gets a new presenter. I think that's a that's been a very successful choice.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Yeah, I wasn't the biggest fan of certain, you know, who they got to present certain categories, you know. I just think it was a bit of a mismatch sometimes. I miss a little bit of the gender reversal in the acting categories too. Yeah, you know, I didn't mind it, but I like it more. I liked it more the way that it usually goes. What do you think was behind that decision?

SPEAKER_01 6:06

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

It was it was an odd choice, I think. Yeah. Um I definitely love and you know, I'm always a big fan of starting with supporting actress, starting with a very big meaty category. Um, so that's always fun. I do think some of the presenters like, you know, I don't think that it's it's kind of weird to see Zendaya and Robert Pattinson present best director. Obviously, A24 A24 positioned them really well, even though A24 could not have had a worse night. Um, that being said, you know, like I also think as much as I love each actor, and I think one actor, you know, one actor has just a such a storied career. Um, you have the Bill Pullman and Lewis Pullman. Yeah, I didn't see the point of doing that. I agree 100%. I think the bit really worked. It didn't work too well. And so sometimes it had these like these awkward things. Okay, so the bridesmaids reunion was good.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

I have liked the idea that if they've you know, I think they've done it for the last couple years of you know, um emphasizing reunions. I have liked that, but I did think it was kind of an odd choice to have the Moulin Rouge reunion be the best picture. What was that? I what I mean, I love Moulin Rouge just as much as everybody, but you know, it's kind of weird for best picture.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

To me, it's a couple of things. Number one, it's again, this is airing on ABC, owned by Disney, owner of 20th Century Fox. That was a 20th Century Fox best picture nominee. 100%. But I refuse to believe that I am so old as to have the presenters like be these legacy um, you know, presenters, uh individuals who are involved with these big important movies. And and and it's Moulin Rouge. Like I'm used to seeing like, oh, on the Star Wars, a new hope team is coming out, you know what I mean? Um, and and for it to be Moulin Rouge, it just makes me feel incredibly old, right? Um so yeah, and again, Moulin Rouge, yeah, you know, they they didn't give the Oscar to Moulin Rouge. They and Moulin Rouge, I think, maybe came out third that year. Yeah, Behind Lord of the Rings, Behind the Beautiful Mind. So it was it was an awkward, odd, odd. Yeah, it was an odd choice, it was a very odd choice. Um, and the bit was kind of awkward to yeah, but in general, I like the re the reunion idea.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

You know, I do like you know, everyone likes seeing you know films that they're fond of and the cast reuniting. Let's talk about I think a very important moment that people have talked about, which is the in memorium, yes, um, which I feel um was uh took a different uh path this year by spotlighting specific um uh filmmakers, um, and uh having you know uh people who've worked with those filmmakers, actors who've worked with those filmmakers, uh just have a more of a space, a moment to speak on their legacy and their work. And I liked that. I thought that that felt appropriate, especially for the amount of storied careers and filmmakers that we lost this year. Um, I know there's always gripes about who's left out uh left off of the in memoriam, so that's always a controversy. Right. But in general, you know, taking a moment to spotlight, you know, Robert Bradford and Rob Reiner and Um Kathy O'Hara and Diane Keaton. I thought that was appropriate. Uh, what'd you think?

SPEAKER_01 9:21

I think it was appropriate, but I think they always went into the issue where like un undoubtedly some people feel, you know, snubbed or some looked over. Um, I'm sorry, excuse me, overlooked. Um could you have someone there recognizing the immense contribution that Frederick Wiseman has done to nonfiction filmmaking? Yes. Are you gonna be able to sell you know advertising that way? No, you're not. Um Robert Duval. I mean, how can you not have something for Robert Duval? That's just kind of crazy. I mean, yeah, Robert Duvall, Robert Redford, you know, they're shoulder to shoulder. Yeah. Um, and so it's a little bit of a mixed bag. I think you pointed out something that I thought was interesting. Um, and we can keep talking about it, but one thing that I did want to say was omissions. So the people did have commentary about the omission, for example, of James Vanderby and the late Eric Kane, um, which is interesting because it's certainly been, you know, at the forefront of poke uh culture. Um certainly because they are, you know, such um uh early deaths in these individuals in these creative artists' lives and hugely impacting for people who grew up with their work. You had mentioned something interesting, which is the idea that I don't know if the Academy responded this way, but uh they were not officially Academy members.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

I heard I I read somewhere from a from a tweet or something that m they possibly weren't mentioned because they weren't Academy members, possibly.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

And I want to just broach that idea because the Academy has a real problem in their hands, in my opinion, because you have these, you know, these deaths that are gonna happen, you know, um, from people who are involved in the industry, and they have to have a clear policy. Because if you're gonna sell your audience and you're gonna sell um your viewers and culture, people who observe the culture, and you're gonna tell them that Eric Dane and James Vanderbeek are missing because they were not Academy members, then what are you gonna do when Ryan Kugler passes, who has also rejected Academy membership? What are you gonna do when Terrence Malik passes and he has rejected Academy membership? Maybe So what's your policy gonna be able to do that?

SPEAKER_02 11:25

Maybe the bridge is that you know there are Academy Award nominees and winners. Um in Ryan Kugler's case. I uh I mean So that kind of makes up for that.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

So what's gonna happen to Terence Malik? Because Terence Malik has never won an Academy Award. But he's an Academy Award nominee. So I guess maybe then that should be the cutoff that you you're either an Academy Award nominee or an Academy Award member or a winner. I just feel like why don't you get ahead of it and tell viewers that and announce it, and then the expectation will be different. And we can have a discussion on whether that's the appropriate policy. I remember like one year they left off, I believe Brad Renfro, um, another young man who passed away. Um and so to me, we can only have an official discussion if you're giving us what the correct parameters are so that we can, you know, build our expectations around that.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

Right. You know, two things about the in memorium before we move on to the next topic is um two things that I wasn't crazy about, even if generally I, you know, just in general, I like the space that they made, you know, to highlight these uh these careers and these filmmakers. The Rob Reiner uh segment, I thought it was a little bit strange to have all these actors come out. Okay, that was nice. Um, you know, actors that represent some of his uh greatest achievements in filmmaking, but they just kind of stood there. Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

You know, it could have been more interactive, more of an active presentation.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

To me, like it it missed a little bit of that potency that I think they were aiming for, having these actors come out and just stand there. It kind of felt almost like self-congratulate, self-congratulatory in a way. You know, are we clapping because these are great actors and they were in great movies? Or are we celebrating Rob Reiner and his work? I I feel like the bridge wasn't concrete enough for me. Right. Um, and then uh Barbara Streisand doing the homage to Robert Rufford. I, you know, I'm sure they're they were very close. Obviously, you know, they seemed to have had a very close relationship, but you know, I did feel that it was a little bit too sentimental, was a little bit schmaltzy. And I was very interested that, you know, over the the the week we learned that Jane Fonda had some thoughts about that. Wow. And I would have liked to have seen Jane Fonda give, you know, uh an homage to Robert Redford, and that would have been that would have been nice. Um, I just I wasn't crazy about the actual execution of the Barbara Streisand Robert Redford.

Sean Penn No-Shows but Joins Oscar Titans with 3 Acting Wins

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Okay, I I I get that. Um, and I can I I see where you're coming from. I think it's kind of weird to have all these actors gather for Rob Reiner because you could have that for so many of the people that you gave an actual minute to maybe expand a little bit more on their loss. Robert Redford, Diane Keaton. Um, you could have done that as well. Um, I think maybe the only thing I can think of is that the the the death of of Rob of Rob Reiner um and his wife and partner was so impactful to anyone who observes the industry that they wanted to give it a very special moment, a very significant moment. That's the only thing I can think of. But I still think it would have been more dynamic to have had more of those actors' voice, a few of their feelings, a few of their experiences with so I do think you're sort of missing the boat there. Um and I do think that the Barbara Streisand moment can be a little bit sentimental. Um, it's always nice to see Barbara Streisand. Um, and I do think it's an appropriate person to invite. Would I have loved a dual presentation between her and Jane Fonda? I think that would have been epic. At the same time, to me, it's even more fascinating in the sense that Jane Fonda is not there and Jane Fonda is wearing sort of, I think, a pin to the after party or something, talking about um no merger. And so, why does it feel to me a little bit like you know, we shouldn't invite Jane Fonda because she may be a little bit more vocal vocal about things that we would rather avoid at this moment, and you don't want to have her wearing that pin when David Zaslav's in the audience. That's a very good point. Um, so I I think that's part of it. Um, and I think that's politically motivated a little bit. Yeah, certainly. I think that and that's a little bit distasteful. Yeah. Um, but the intentions are always good with In Memorium. The problem, I think, in my opinion, is that the expectations are so high, and the moment I think has come for the Academy to really address how they're gonna handle it um from here on out. And I think there are plenty of of really good opportunities for them to exploit, and we'll see if that happens. Um, but yeah, sort of a mixed bag, like always.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

What about speeches? I feel like, you know, it was a bummer that Sean Penn didn't show up. Yes, um, he's doing humanitarian work in Ukraine, but still, you know, it would have been nice. I know he's been very critical of the Oscars um as of late over the last few years, uh, in part because of how he feels they've dealt with the uh Ukraine issue conflict. Um, and so, but you know, it's kind of a bummer uh because it's his third Oscar, you know, and who knows if he gets another Oscar after this.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

Unlikely.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Uh right, especially now after having skipped. Um, or you know, honestly, the fact that Robert Robert, the fact that Sean Penn was able to win uh the category and not having shown up at the BAFTA, not having shown up at the SAG, winning both those. Um, there was a lot of interviews pre- you know, one battles, dominance on the award circuit. Um, but you know, very silent after that, after got the nominations and whatnot. And he was still able to win, I think, goes to show that despite how critical he might be of the academy and the Oscars, he's a very respected and and and admired actor, you know, to those to those who are actually voting.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

What I think is sort of interesting about that moment for supporting actor, um, and I don't know if you want to start digging into categories or highlights, but I think it's an interesting moment that you pointed out, the Kieran Colkin sort of delivery at the end, you know. I kind of admire that. The sort of like, you know, I'm just gonna I could say that I'm gonna accept it on his behalf, or I can just sort of say, yeah, he doesn't really want to be here. And I kind of admire that upfrontness, the same way that I'm not beyond admiration for Sean Penn's, you know, talking down at the academy and then not showing up.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Yeah, you know, putting putting your money where you're yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

I agree, I agree with that. I kind of like the consistency of their I I don't agree with a lot of what with what they do, and I I disagree with a lot of things that they've done, and so I'm just not gonna show up.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

And so I do except he didn't show up at the SAG or the BAFTA either.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

And maybe he feels the same way. Maybe he feels the same way. Um, I remember a few years ago when like Joe Pesci didn't show up to anything, but he did show up to the Oscars. Did he? I think he did, yeah. I'm pretty sure. And we're talking about Irishman, right? Yeah, I'm pretty sure he did. Um I will say, in my opinion, it was also one of the more contentious moments when you have the camera on the other nominees, which is which is great. Oh they should never get rid of it. Never. But they were a lot of, in my opinion, bummed. I think there was only one.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

I think in supporting actor, the one bummed face was like I disagree. Hey, this guy didn't even show up here.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

I think Daryl London Deroy was upset that Sean didn't even show up, and you know, he's been working for so long, and he's finally been nominated. He didn't uh get the win. Um I don't think Stellan was very excited about it. I think Benicio was it was happy. Right. Um, and I don't think Jacob was surprised, but that was sort of a funny moment. Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

Um I thought it was nice to see later on in the week um that the uh you know um they gave him a mock Oscar in made out of materials that were destroyed by the Russians. You know, that was nice. It was sweet. Um you know, for it's a very brief video, but in the video it it seems like he's touched, yeah, you know, and so I don't think the achievement is like lost on him. Um I just think he has different priorities, right? Um, which I again, as we just we just said, I kind of respect a little bit to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:09

Um, but uh what a surprise that was, you know, in terms of not that he won the Oscar, but that he would go on to win the Oscar, you know, because actually when the year started, he seemed like a perfect candidate to win, just considering that, you know, it was uh assumed that he was gonna be the villain, the antagonist. But then the movie comes out, and you know, people are they love everybody from the cast, people have different favorites, and then Stan Skarsgar was such an early favorite from Can and just seemed to fit the bill of what would win that category. Then Benicio ends up, you know, uh winning most of the uh regional critics groups, um, and then it just ends up being Champagne again.

SINNERS and Autumn Durald Arkapaw Shatters Oscars Glass Ceiling for Best Cinematography

SPEAKER_01 19:48

So this full circle moment at one point there was a debate is is Lockjaw just too unlikable. Um, I think it was obviously an interesting moment because you have Champagne joining the big three group, and so he joins Daniel DeLewis. Um, I think his win mirrors a little bit more closely someone like uh Jack Nicholson with two leads and one supporting. I think that inevitably helped that he had never won a supporting Oscar. I agree. Um, but he does join the three club, um and very few people have it all in in lead. Um I think just I think Daniel and Francis um maybe Catherine Hepburn who has a leading four. Um but yeah, that was interesting. I I wonder what other highlights there were for you in the night. And I think there was a I think despite our critiques on the actual presentation, it was a pretty historic night. Right. So is there another moment that um you really loved in terms of a highlight of the entire thing?

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Well, speaking about, you know, uh history, uh Sinners winning cinematography, that was a big historical moment. That was great. Yeah, it was great. And we had And one of the surprises of the night because even though Sinners was an early favorite, um, one battle had gotten a lot of steam with the BAFTA win or with the ASC win, and it seemed like it was one battle for the taking, and then all of a sudden Sinners wins.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

And you have to go back a little while to see the last time that a winner from BAFTA and the cinematographer's guild, the ASC, didn't end up winning. And I think by and large, the community that predicts who's gonna win had sided with Michael Bauman. Nonetheless, it was great to see Autumn win. Um, I think she had a terrific speech, asked all the women in the audience to stand up. Yeah, um, her son was there. I believe Ryan, you know, um helped bring this uh her son uh to her seat so that he could get a better view of seeing Autumn win. Um that was a spectacular moment, and certainly a highlight.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

Very, you know, uh such a such a significant moment for you know the history of the Academy Awards and of cinema.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:53

Um but a surprise, you know. I didn't expect because you know, I initially I was surprised that Centers was getting passed off. For towards the end, one battle after another and these bigger awards bodies, but also in a lot of the regional uh you know presentations or organizations were giving it to train dreams. So it just felt like the passion wasn't beh there behind um centers. And then we had heard that you know people were a little bit critical with some of the you know visual work in centers, right? Um, and that maybe that was one reason why it wasn't winning more things.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Um, I think it came down to you know uh in the category, maybe they just felt that Sinners was the showiest. Um, and usually the showiest wins in this category. You're absolutely right. Um, even though one battle might have been my personal pick, I think it was yours as well. Um Sinners is yes, it's just you know, just on a conceptual level, the showyest one.

The First Ever Winner for Best Casting at the Oscars

SPEAKER_01 22:52

And I think also it's not just the showyest one. I think sometimes it's also like the most, you know, for lack of a better word, commercial. And so like I remember when something like Inception wins over Yo2 Grit, um, despite them both being very um big commercial successes, I think a lot of it is just the idea that, you know, um Inception was the blockbuster of them. And so between One Battle and Sinners, yes, One Battle has VistaVision and you could market that. Just the idea that Sinners was the blockbuster of the two, I think gives it a little bit of the edge or gave it a little bit of the edge, but I also think history um was a part of it, and I think you couldn't ask for a more deserving winner. Um, and I think that was a great moment. Um so I think now maybe the lens turns to BAFTA, which has not broken that history because the guild has already um awarded, for example, Mandy Walker for her work in Elvis. Now the Oscars have um awarded Autumn for her work on Center. So it turns to the guild as to when the guild is gonna have that moment, and I I I I will observe that with interest. Um, but in terms of you know history-making moments, we should really talk about casting, which was a great, great, great, great moment.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

It was actually a great moment in full stop. I love the presentation of having actors come out five of them. Um, I kind of miss that a little bit. I know it's a little showy, it's a little kind of you know, and too long. It's too long. You can't know I do like it. I do like you know having you know past winners come out and you know, um one per nominee, and you got five people there. Yeah, I do shaking the microphone. I have to say I do say I do like it. Um, but I really liked it here in casting. I felt I thought it was very appropriate. Um yes, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

So you had Winnof Powdra in there from Marty Supreme, you had Chase Infinity one bad after another, Brighton Morr for a secret agent, uh Hamnet, uh Paul Paul Mask was snubbed. So you had a lot of the snubbed people come out. Del Rolando. You had a lot of snubbed people who did not get nominations come out and like shout out their casting.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

Well, there's only one person on that stage who doesn't have a nomination.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

And that's and that's just you're right. Well, you're right. Which again, she should have been there. Um, but uh most of them were not nominees that year. So I'm saying they didn't invite Jesse Buckley to talk about Hamlet, nor did they invite Timothy Chalamet to talk about um Marty Supreme, but instead they I liked the idea that they were spotlighting some of those people who were not going to have the camera in front of them because they were not nominated. I agree, with the exception of Daryl Lindo, which in reality, in my opinion, again, Daryl Lindo is just such an elegant speaker, so I understand why you want him up there to deliver that that moment um for their casting director. I think it would have been great to see Miles there personally. Um, I'm so so happy about that. But you're right, I love the presentation of it. It was super appropriate. It was history-making because it was the first time it ever happened, but it was also, in our opinion, right, a history-making moment because I think that's when the night shifted. I think we came in to the Oscars saying this really feels neck and neck. Is it gonna be more wins for sinners, but the biggest win for one battle? The most wins for one battle, but the biggest win for sinners. Are they gonna end up tying or something like that? And then I think this is the moment where it became clear, okay, we know what kind of night it's gonna be.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

Yeah, you know, that was one of my favorite awards also, um, because I thought that the film that deserved to win the most won. I was very happy we got it wrong, as did most people. Most people were predicting.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

I think everybody got it wrong. Most people were predicting it went for sinners, and it was certainly a favorite for the majority of the Oscar race this year.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Right. Um, uh, but I s I I'm I was so happy to see that one battle won that. I I did think it was the best in the category. Um, it would have been my personal choice as well. And I'm not surprised that it won. You know, and I almost wish I had maybe well, I don't know, it was very tough. It was a tough call.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

No way. There's no way. I mean, it would have been a really I my hat off to my hats off to anyone who was able to get that right, even though it was obviously a formidable contender there. Just I think most people really felt that it would end up going to Sinners.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

Yeah, just in my impression, and again, Sinners has a terrific cast, and that's such an integral ingredient element of the film that lends to its success. But in my opinion, you know, there's just not one part wasted in uh one battle, even the smallest part, two lines, feels you know, uh deliberate and thoughtful as to the casting choices. And so I was a really big fan of that win. Um, that was the highlight for me.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

I'm so excited to see how this category evolves over time.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

I think we're because I do think people were disappointed overall with the nominations, like the nomination, the nominees for the category that were a little bit predictable, familiar. There was minus the secret agent, which was great, a great, great uh inclusion. But in general, it was the same movies that we were seeing in other categories. And this is an opportunity to highlight, you know, movies like the secret agent that you wouldn't expect to be in there, but that absolutely deserve to be on there.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

But it's kind of fun, I think, also, because going forward we'll have sort of like a new chess piece on um the table because what we learned was all four acting nominees came from this category. I'm sorry, all four acting winners came from this category, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Um No, no, weapons.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Oh, excuse me, weapons, you're right. Um minus weapons. Minus weapons, three of the winners came from this uh category. Thank you for calling me out on that. Um the other thing I think that's interesting is the winner here was the film with the most acting nominations, right? One battle ended up winning this and it had one more nomination over Sinners. Could that have you know maybe illuminated why it would break towards One Battle?

SPEAKER_02 28:46

Um obviously not even though I want to say, and I'll just bring this up really quick, and I'm sorry to for interrupting you, but you know, thinking back on even when the nominations came out, you and I you and I discussed this, and I don't know if we mentioned it in the episode that was discussing the nominations, but they resisted giving any film more than four acting nominations, and they had the opportunity to do so with one battle, especially after those. Especially after those SAG nominations. And so it almost feels like this academy is very hesitant. You know, the voting body as a whole, at least those who pick the uh the nominees, they're very hesitant to break that, you know, threshold of more than four.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

Um which wasn't the case in the 70s.

Oscars History in Live Action Short Film - SINGERS and SALIVA Share the Stage

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Yeah, I think you're right. Um I think that's something to be aware of. Um why it breaks towards one battle. I wonder if it's a little bit not unrelated to what we're saying about cinematography and it breaking for the big blockbuster, Sinners. Maybe here, I think maybe it hurts that Sinners is the bigger blockbuster, and they instead wanted to give it to a film that was a little bit more of a, you know, a glorified, uh big budgeted independent film, so to speak. And then the other factor I think that we can talk about is just the idea that you know, you had such esteemed names in this category, including Nina Gold and Francine Mazler. Um, but maybe something that helped this break for one battle after another in terms of sort of the industry vote here and and the people voting are very much people involved in the industry, is just the idea that the relationship between Paul Thomas Anderson and Cassandra is uh they've had a longer tenure together. And maybe that was part of the reason why one battle ended up getting the edge here. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. Um, but yeah, really strong historic moment. I like the way it was presented. Um, it was a really meaningful moment in the night. Um, so that's that was a highlight for me. Um, we have to talk about another history-making moment, which was the category of best live action short film, which they could not have gotten a better presenter for, in my opinion, and Kameo Nanjani. Um, so what did you think?

SPEAKER_02 30:55

I thought I thought Kameo did a really good job, you know, under the pressure of having to deliver a tie. Um uh I thought what he said about the irony of that, you know, uh having that tie happen in a short film. Absolutely brilliant. Right. Um, you know, I was happy to see the tie because we didn't get it wrong because we predict the singers. We predicted the singers.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

We did.

SPEAKER_02 31:18

Um, it was unfortunate though that most people were predicting per girl derby um to people who changing saliva. Yeah. So we couldn't get that extra point.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

We thought that, man, maybe this is where we can make up a few points.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

And I I felt really happy for us that we kind of understood after seeing all of the uh short films that you know the singers really was being uh slept on. Made a lot of sense for for a win here.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

Um you know, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have maybe I'm mistaken here, but I wouldn't have guessed that two people of Shiny Saliva would end up winning. And it ended up being, you know, the day right before, I mean the day of even Gold Derby, it became the favorite to win.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

And so when when they said tie, I was hoping that it wasn't two people at the time. Okay, but who did you think it was? I mean, obviously you hoped one was the singers, and who did you think the other thing?

SPEAKER_02 32:06

I thought the other one was the number one gold derby pick, yeah. Which was uh two people changed allowed.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

I thought there was a chance that it could have been um a friend of Dorothy. Um I was really happy that they said the singers, and so I was really excited about that. There was a lot of reasons why we went with it, but I'm glad it turned out well. Um I just I just love the idea, and we talked about it, that this historic moment, I think there's been seven ties, is what I've read, I think, at the Oscars. Um the most recent one being which another another really interesting moment in the night in 2012. Yeah, Zero Dark 30. Yeah, when Zero Dark 30 was able to pull out or sneak out one win um for sound editing, um, tying with Skyfall, which again was really uh really louder film that year was only able to uh well, no, it got songs, so it was able to sneak out that win as well. So that was a really interesting moment. I remember Mark Wahlberg, I believe, delivered in 2012. Um, for the films 20 uh 12 and March of 2013. Um, but that's the last time we had a tie, um, which actually isn't that far. What is that? Like uh 12 years, no, uh 14 years, yeah, been 14 years. Um, so it's excellent to see. I just we talked about it. I love the idea that of all the categories to tie, it was a live action short film. Because to me, that just reads that a lot of voters participated in the category and there was a lot of passion for those particular films. Um, I think it's interesting in the sense that you and I went um through debating all year is there enough room in this category for these films that mirror each other's energies and in good ways? Again, we want to say that live action short film this year was one of the strongest categories ever for live action short film. And so we had a uh a debate um all year whether there is enough room to recognize Jane Austen's period drama and a friend of Dorothy, and there was. We had a debate is there enough room to to nominate these really these really idiosyncratic works like The Singers and Um Two People Exchanging Speaker.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

Yeah, because we had seen a lot of these film these short films of other festivals ahead of time.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

And we had a we were already thinking, yeah, this would be uh a good short to be uh nominated, but can we see both this and that or both this and that?

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Or do they cancel each other out and none of them get in? And so this was a really interesting year for live-action short film, really strong year. We thought maybe Butcher Stain is the one that's gonna have the one that you know stands out the most, so maybe there's an edge there. Um, we're glad we got it right, but I think I think we're even happier to see this be the particular category that um that produced a tie.

SPEAKER_02 34:40

And the last thing I want to say Well, I I I do think that it helped that you know two people at Changer's Aliva was able to bring on bring on board uh Isabel Luper and Julianne Moore.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Right. But every single one had their advantage, right? So Jane Austen's period drama had the whole idea of it's playing off not just Jane Austen, um, the Jane Austen world in the literary sense, but the Jane Austen world in the cinematic sense. And the Jane Austen world has been visited and films nominated at the Academy for so long that that was an advantage. You had Miriam in her friend with Dorothy, you had Isabelle Hooper um in uh Two People who changed the Live, Barry Jenkins. Um, but then the singers, they use popular music to their advantage, right? And so and Butcher Stane um had uh, I believe uh the son of a Barry Levinson. Barry Levinson helped him uh make the film, supported him making the film, and so everyone had their advantage. It was really interesting. Um, the last thing I want to say about this category, and I hope it bridges us to the following topic, which is the winners from Two People Exchanging Saliva get on stage. Oh, yeah. And I think we gotta talk about it. You know, they call out the ballet opera, what are we calling it? Ballet Opera Gate? What are what are we what are we calling it?

SPEAKER_02 35:52

Well, before we go there for a second, let's just mention that, you know, in terms of the shorts, they're usually the categories that can really affect your pool, how many you get right, both in who you predict as nominees and who you predict as winners. Um, you can always expect a surprise, more than one surprise, in either case. Um, and in this case, you know, documentary short was easily the favorite, but live, but animated short was not the favorite.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Right. And we were sort of able to at the last minute break. That was one of our last minute decisions at the 12th hour.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

Most people were predicting Papillon.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Papillon, and we ended up going with the filmmakers from The Girl Who Cried Pearls. Um, it's a great win for the National Film Board and Canada, who have won in this category before, but it's been quite a while. Yeah. So it was really great to see. Um, we definitely thought that, for example, something like Stop Motion was gonna get an advantage, and so we really we were really happy to see that.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

We were really happy with that one. We were pretty ecstatic. We thought like that win was gonna help take us over the top.

Timothée Chalamet and A24 Win the Battle With MARTY SUPREME, but Lose the War

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Right. Um, and we had some some misses, including on 12 hour predictions. Maybe we'll talk about it. Um, but it was certainly a moment where uh we were happy because it it went against what the majority of pundits were saying, not unlike last year when in the Shadow the Cypress won. Um so that was interesting.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

Right. But back to your point of, you know, uh when the um the filmmakers behind Two People Exchange Saliva get on stage right in front of Timothy Chalamet. Bert front row. They mention the ballet, uh an opera gate. Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

What are you calling it? Whatever.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

I don't know what you meant to call it. You know, that has been a pure nightmare. You know, that has been kind of uh, you know, with the days leading up to the academy, obviously, you know, we've all been privy to just how many people have participated in their you know, discussion of what Timothy Chalamet said in that town hall with Matthew McConaughey about ballet and opera.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

Nathan Lane wondering why the hell we're having a uh a town hall between these two people anyway.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

And uh, Julie Binoche mentioned something. Big over gave him uh you know it was pretty hard on him on the view. Um so I just feel like people and Conan O'Brien made a few jokes about it as well at the top of the uh the telecast.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

I thought he could have been a little bit more pointed, but he I think wanted to not make it too much of his focus.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

He could have. I I heard, and again, I wasn't in the room, and I don't know that I trust these sources I was hearing, but I heard that at one point Timothy Chalamet and Kylie Jenner were not appreciative of all that kind of you know, joking around, and then they left for an hour. Um the the the actual auditory, you know, actual theater. Yeah, um then maybe they went to the lobby or something, I don't know. Um, but supposedly they left for like an hour and then they came back like right before Best Actor. Wow, supposedly I kind of want to go through the telecast and like keep my eyes, see if look for the seat feather. Let's see for the seat feather. Wow. I don't know if that's true or not. I don't know if I buy it or not.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

You know, if you're listening to this podcast and you have access to the taping, go and check out when you see a seat filler there.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

Right. Um, but I do think that if that were to have happened, I understand because they were joking about it quite a bit. Right. I'm still confused why Timothy Shawame hasn't said anything about it. He's still he strikes me as the kind of person that would just, you know, grab a hold and and control the narrative, the situation, and just speak openly. Listen, you know, I I shed something that I maybe shouldn't have said, you know, my bad. Let's move on. You know, and I think that would have been enough. Um, but for some reason he hasn't said anything.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

Or he's been advised not to say anything, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:53

Or he's been advised. Um, and I don't know, you know, we've been, you know, uh Timothy has been on our radar for a very long time. Um we, I mean, we remember him from Men, Women and Children when he had a small bit there, and obviously Interstellar. And, you know, seeing him evolve throughout his career, I just wondered if, you know, something wasn't off about him in that final ceremony at the Oscars. He felt a little bit we should talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

It didn't seem to me like he was his jovial self. Yeah, yeah. It seemed to me.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

And now what I would what I'm used to seeing from him.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

It seemed to me like the talk had gotten to him and the coverage had gotten to him, and that I think, and again, I'm not this is no personal dig, I'm just observing as I'm an observer here, you know. We're observers and we we we call we cover the the race and we cover you know the politics behind it and everything. And so I think one thing is to eventually lose a bid that maybe you felt you were well positioned, or people had claimed you were well positioned to win all year. Or you felt you deserved it. Or maybe you felt that you deserved it. Um and one thing is to lose that, right? Another thing is to lose that in a way where you're being possibly hyper scrutinized. And that's a tough thing for anyone.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

And and this is still a very young actor.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

And so I don't I I completely understand why it maybe has, you know, not he hasn't been able to, you know, just shrug it off um with ease. You know, I remember reading a headline. Again, I didn't read the article, but I read the headline. I think it was variety. One of the major traits talk about, you know, has Timothy Chalamet lost his shine or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

Yeah, and there was there was one that just came out right now in the last week or so about, you know, Timothy Chalamet's downfall and what it reveals about us. You know, it's just those can't be easy things to hear. Not at all.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

And you know, you're you're an artist and you're uh a professional, and so you're still working, but you know, let's face it, it's a very small world. So I'm sure someone has it's already come across your eyes. You're aware of it, and if even if you try not to entertain it, you know, that's not an easy thing to be presented. And so I wanna say that there are people criticizing his behavior quite publicly or his comments quite publicly, like we'll be Goldberg. But also wanna say it's not an easy position to be in. He's been um scrutinized for the way he's campaigned the movie. I certainly have had my critiques about it, um, not so much as it reflects on him as an artist or him as a personality, him as a persona, or him as an individual or a performer or a professional. Again, film massively successful, the most money-making film in A24 history. So there you go. Um, but I do I've always critiqued it as strategy. Right in terms of strategy, I said this, you know, back in uh October or whenever they started presenting it before NYFF. I think, you know, it's the kind of thing that could quickly blow up in your face. And I think it did blow up in in in his face, or it blew up in the face of the campaign for A24 to a certain degree. The campaign, not the box office. Right, exactly. You had to decide what victory is here, and if victory is most money-making film, you've achieved it, and you would not have achieved it without it. Right. You know, it's only the orange outfit that helps get you there, right? Without it, you would not have made that. You just have to look at Timothy Chalavet's other films to know that. And certainly his more his more artistic films and the films of Safety, right? Um, but if the goal is to get him that win, then that is not the right strategy. And so the same way we were able to sort of call out a moment like that that happened last year on the awards circuit on the Oscar race, is the same way that you know we feel adamant about the most appropriate thing is to call out everyone who's making Timothy Chalamet's loss in Best Actor about ballet opera. It's not about ballet opera. Ballads were cast before before that. This loss is a reflective is a reflection of Myriad of factors. Um, part of which certainly may be um how do you uh uh more um valid than others. For example, there are gonna be some people who admire the performance and dislike the character, point blank. Right. There are gonna be some viewers who cannot finish a Safety film point blank, right? Right, there are gonna be some voters who think he's too young and he can't do anything about that. He can't make himself older automatically, right? Right? We we've talked about that. Um, the the loss here again was some of that marketing strategy. Um, unfortunately, and again, I don't think you can ever escape this. I'm sure there were some people who were not thrilled with the whole he's dating a Kardashian thing. Right. And I want to believe that that's the smallest amount that we're voting based on merit. I really do believe that the majority of people vote on merit. Um, and he just came up a little bit short.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

Um, and so I I'm not a hundred percent sure. I agree with you. I think that in an ideal world, you know, factors like that would be minuscule, you know, as to why he doesn't win. But I do think some of these more outside factors outside of the performance, um, you know, played a bigger played a bigger role. But yeah, I get your point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Uh maybe you're right. Maybe they do play a bigger role, and maybe it's not always merit, you know. Which is not fair, by the way. Yeah. And again, I don't want to knock certain performers, you know. I I do think it's partly political, so to speak. Um, you know, I'm sure that the desire to give it to Sandra Bullock for the blind side was um overwhelming over 100% her work on the actual movie. And again, the the the what the film accomplished at the box office had a lot to do with it. What she's accomplished at the box office had a lot to do with it. Um and Sandra Bush is a very good actress. And just liking her. Yeah, just liking her. And just exactly the way she campaigned and presented herself is a factor. That being said, you also had Monique that year, who was heavily criticized and was still able to win the award because of merit, in my opinion. Um, and therefore, you're right, it's a little bit of a dance between those two things. But I don't I don't like this narrative that you know ballet operate cost him the Oscar. I think that's that's short-sighted, and it's just that that's um a decision that people are making because um they didn't they weren't sharp enough throughout the year. And I think we we were pointing out a lot of um a lot of stumbles on the weight to this moment and a lot of um miscalculations possibly. Um we talked about after after we saw it, and maybe even before I think when it premiered, just the idea that by the very nature of the film it is, we would be having a completely different discussion had Marty Supreme been nominated for five or six or nine Academy Awards last year, including Best Actor, and this year had been nominated for Uncomplete Unknown. He can he can win for playing Bob Dylan. Right. It's going to be extremely difficult to win for playing Marty Mauser. It doesn't matter how old you are, right? Right. Um and I think you can put Kieran Culkin in the role of Marty Mauser, and he would probably still lose. And Kieran Culkin is extremely endearing, right? Um, and he has a sing a certain sort of legacy in the industry. I don't think that Kieran Culkin can win any type of Oscar for playing Marty Mauser. That's just my my impression.

SPEAKER_02 47:23

You know, I don't know. I I Okay, so I'm hearing you, and I think that it's I think it's valid, but I have two things to say. One is that, again, I just want to stress that it's been strange to see kind of not just the change in the narrative of the Marty Supreme phenomenon, you know, uh it's destined to win best actor and to get nine for several Academy Awards, walks out with zero wins and doesn't win best actor. That's been really fascinating to see the the the the change, the the change of the tide. Um, and uh again being influenced by all these other factors, and it kind of sucks to see him not kind of be the kind of Timothy Chalamet that we're used to seeing in terms of you know at these awards. And you know, again, there's something very accessible, very, you know, uh affable, very, you know, charming about him. And I just feel like the lights were a little bit dim.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

Right.

SPEAKER_02 48:19

You know, uh, when you saw him on the red carpet, I know there was a video that was out about someone was doing it an exact like second by second play by play of him completely uh escaping or or avoiding uh Steven Spielberg.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Is the most ridiculous thing of life?

SPEAKER_02 48:36

I will say the video did look a little bit like they were, like he was trying to avoid him uh uh from from an outsider's perspective, but I get what you're saying. It's you know, it was it was it was crazy.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

But exactly, like I'm just saying people really I think some outlets really exploited the upside down nature of this narrative from being the front runner to being he's going to lose or he can lose or I can't believe he lost.

SPEAKER_02 49:02

But I also think that he said, Right, but I also think that Timothy Chalamet dipping his toe into sort of this more mainstream pop culture with some of the campaign tactics and dating uh Kylie Jenner kind of gives per kind of gave permission to some of these, you know, media outlets to kind of run with it. You know, in a way, you know what I'm saying? I get what you're saying. In a in a way, his participation with that kind of world kind of you know came with him being open to that, to that other kind of I think you're right.

SPEAKER_01 49:34

Um I just think it's I just think it's a shame and in portase in the sense that you have those individuals who are covering that moment when Timothy Chalamet is, you know, just barely, you know, escaping contact with Steven Spielberg. It'd be great if they were actually put on another Safdi film. Um and maybe that's just an assumption I'm making. But if they could cover the Safdi film uh that is not marketed that way, that is not marketed that way with the same amount of passion, then you know, then heaven knows what would have made significantly more money, in my opinion. Right.

SPEAKER_02 50:05

Um but like I said, I was just unfortunate to see those those lights dim. Right. You know, and I felt that, you know, especially as in the in the latter leg of this awards campaigning train, the lights were dim, right? You know, and and it's unusual to see him in that light. Right, right. I think a part of me, and we've discussed this privately, I think a part of me feels like he's maybe bitter, you know, bitter about kind of, you know, not maybe not even necessarily the the tie, the change or the loss the momentum, or even the loss. But as you were saying, this feeling of, you know, being exploited and you know, being um you know, uh uh yeah, taken out of context, maybe in a way, or you know, feeling like people were have misconstrued his intentions and his words, um, that there's a bitterness there that wasn't there, you know, all these other years that you've seen him kind of in the you know um Hollywood uh circuit.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

And there's I mean, uh to to continue on what you're just what you're saying, everyone talked last year about the villain being Emilia Perez, right?

SPEAKER_02 51:10

Well, specifically Carlos Sofia Gascon, probably.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

And specifically Carlos Sofia Gascon. And I wonder if a little bit of that has rubbed into the whole Mario Supreme thing. Another factor that did not help Mario Supreme is you know it finally being revealed why Josh and Benny were not necessarily working together.

SPEAKER_02 51:27

Well, again, even that's an assumption as that that's what maybe that's an assumption.

SPEAKER_01 51:31

Again, there are some decisions being made as to when to address something, when not to address something that are some maybe questionable. Um, and again, I would I would wonder if being more upfront about it could have saved a lot of trouble. Like you would couldn't this have been announced before the movies went into production before the movies are gonna be released? Would that not have been better? Um it's almost like I guess in this industry, especially, you're only gonna escape, you know, uh being outed for so long. Eventually they're going they're going to out you. Um, and so I I do think that that may be another miscalculation with considering. I do think that played a factor in ultimately Marty Supreme walking out with zero Oscars. Um, I don't think that's the only factor, and I want to touch upon that for a second um as we continue this discussion. You know, I want to say Marty Supreme didn't get any wins, and we had called this after BAFTA. After BAFTA, when it didn't get any wins, we had said, you know, there is a trend where like if you got nothing at BAFTA, that's a very good um predecessor for you getting nothing at the Academy Awards. And Marty Supreme did really well in the lead up to nominations. Um it was a top five film, it was nominated in a b in a in a bunch of places, but I want to say that it also reiterates something that maybe we overlook, which is that being a top five film is fantastic and it's great for when you get your nominations. But there's a little bit of a downside, which is when you're a top five film, usually one of you is gonna walk out with nothing. And so if you look at the DGA award nominees, right, and I was looking back on this on the lead up to the Oscars. If you look at the DGA nominees, um, the nominees for the Directors Guild of America, which has long been sort of the gold standard for predicting who the five favorite for the Oscars Best Picture are, every single time or most of the time, they have a film that will get nothing, that will end up winning no Academy Award. And so last year, for example, um, they gave uh a nomination to Complete Unknown, no wins, right? Um, the year before that, a nomination for Kids of the Flower Moon, no wins.

SPEAKER_03 53:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

The year before that, there was a bunch of movies that got no wins, whether it was Tar or Fate or uh Fablemans, um Elvis. Uh uh El Elvis, actually, Elvis didn't get a DJ nomination. Um but um in 2021, Licorice Pizza was a DJ nominee. It didn't get any wins. And so, like, it's great to fight tooth and nail as studios do fight tooth and nail during the Oscar race and during the yearly campaign to score a top five DJ nomination and and sort of wrestle your way into being a top five movie. But so many of them don't focus on the idea that okay, now that I'm one in five, right, one of us statistically should walk away with nothing. So that I have to fight extra hard to make sure that I'm not that movie.

Michael B. Jordan Becomes the Face of New Hollywood

SPEAKER_02 54:21

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's something that I want that's the other thing I want to mention about Timothy Chalemet's uh loss. Um, uh, what you had said, um, and and maybe that can transition us into this this next topic of best actor, um, is that you said Marty Mauser is not the typical kind of role that would win the Academy for the Academy Award for Best Actor. Um, and I I wholeheartedly believe that that's true as well. But I do feel like I don't think that Michael B. Jordan's performance um is the kind of performance that typically wins best actor either. You know, I do think that there was a lot of, you know, because of the shift from the Martio Supreme sort of narrative, that opened an avenue for another person, for another actor to kind of seize the moment and of the choices that there were there. Obviously, the one that, you know, the industry was most excited about was Michael B. Jordan. I think we talked about this in a previous episode about, you know, how he represents this sort of new Hollywood, but in in a manner that I think is very uh palatable to the Academy voters. He's a very good actor, very strong actor. We've been following him for years. I've been following his work since Fruitville Station. I think you might have seen him on The Wire.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:33

Um, uh Friday Night Lights, you know. So, yeah, so we've been following him for a very long time, and um, he's a terrific actor, but it's not the kind of performance that you would expect to win Best Actor, in my opinion. I don't think that, you know, Sinners kind of provides the best platform to see all of uh Michael B. Jordan's sort of range and his what I, you know, some of the some of the aspects of his craft that I value the most. You know, um, I don't know if you feel the same way, if you feel differently. Um uh I'm very happy for his win, but I just wanted to point that out that I'm not sure that I see his performance in Sinners and maybe even Sinners as a whole, to be the kind of film that typically wins a best actor, Oscar. Um and I think again, a big reason why we saw that outcome was uh what happened with Timothy Chalamet um and that and that and that you know tide of change.

SPEAKER_01 56:28

I mean, I think the Timothy Chalamet thing was a factor, but I do think that the narrative, you know, maybe taking hold on let's inspect how Timothy Chalamet lost this as opposed to how Michael B. Jordan won it. Um, and I I think that you're right. Certainly, in my opinion, it is not the type of performance that traditionally wins an Oscar, but I also think it makes sense with where the trend is, because I don't know that I believe that traditionally Michelle Yao's performance and everything everywhere all at once would beat Lydia Tarr. But by virtue of Lydia Tar being largely unlikable, it makes sense for Kate Blanchett to lose. I mean, it doesn't help that Kate Blanchett already has two, right? Right, and everything everywhere all at once presents history, right? Um, and again, it I helps that, for example, Michael B. Jordan, I think what uh he's there's just such a few group of black actors that have won that award. And again, you're sort of catching up here trying to make right on that. Um, and that's that's in a that's something that I think the campaign was able to exploit and and good for them, you know. And I loved Michael's speech, um, shouting out everyone who was on that position. And and we're, I'm sure, just years away from finally from finally seeing another um actress uh win um best actress, a black actress, that's gonna be amazing. But again, that's part of that's part of what's helping the campaign. I do think that my Marty Mauser being unlikable is part of it. Um, I think Sinners being the most nominated film of the year was a part of why Michael was able to win. I think you're 100% right. Michael B. Jordan should not be a one-time nominee. And so it on paper it reads possibly a little bit like how can Michael B. Jordan win on his first time when Timothy Chalamet is, you know, a three-time lead actor nominee. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 58:20

Well, I wouldn't say that personally, but I think some people would some people would say that.

SPEAKER_01 58:23

Some people are going to complain about Timothy Chalamet. I think he has he has a nomination. Timothy? Yeah, Timothy has three lead acting nominations because of Bob Dylan's performance from Bob Dylan last year. Um, and then you have Michael, this is his first um nomination, not unlike, for example, Michelle Yao or Brendan Frazier. But Michael should have been there years before. Michael should have been in content in strong consideration for Fru Vel Station. He should have been strong consideration for Creed. And so so many of his collaborations with Ryan Kugler, so many of his collaborations with Ryan Kugler should have resulted in a nomination by now. And so it's sort of like yes, Timothy Chalamet is possibly in a position where it's a little bit easier, or maybe uh uh the community is a little bit uh more prepared to recognize him and nominate him. But when it finally came time to give him a win, they were a little bit hesitant. And the community at large finally caught up to the idea that Michael should have been here years or before already. And they've said, Well, if I have the opportunity to give him the win, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna let him being a one-time nominee stop that. I'm not gonna let it be, not I'm not going to let the fact that it's a vampire movie stop that. Um, and so I do think you're right, it's not the traditional role that wins an Oscar, but I think it is somewhat on trend. And I do think Marty Mao's.

SPEAKER_02 59:38

What about what about the traditional performance? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 59:41

Not just role. Right. Uh like I said, I think the performance, um, in my opinion, you could possibly have drawn a stronger distinction between the two brothers. Um, right. That being said, I wonder if on trend is the narrative possibly more. More important than the performance. Exactly. Right. And so just the idea that he's been overlooked so often, just the idea that he you know really approaches his films with passion and really helps them speak to an audience and find an audience.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:12

Well, again, like what I said, where he represents. Right. No, uh Exactly. You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:16

He's he's very much, I think, in our opinion, someone like a a sort of a Brad Pitt DiCaprio figure where he's going to lend, you know, his stardom to these meaningful movies and he's gonna boost their profile and he's gonna do good work on them. You know, he's he's not gonna do uh, you know, a film that he doesn't believe in.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:35

And I feel like you can feel that, you could feel that in the room. I think back to what I was saying at the at the top, um, in terms of speeches, I do feel like his was the speech that I think most people were excited about in the room. I think that's where you felt the most passion from the um the audience um when they were seeing his win. It just felt like what he had said on stage about people betting on him, the industry betting on him. I think that you could feel that in the room, most people there, you know, were rooting for him. Yes, you know, wanted to see him have that moment. And I think that that was a big reason why, you know, things turned out the way that they did, despite there being a category where I feel like there were other contenders that could have seized the moment. You know, Ethan Hawke, you you talk about Timothy Chalamet's third nomination and uh Michael B. Jordan's first. He should have been there much sooner than that, of course. This is uh Ethan Hawke's fifth nomination, his third as an actor, his first as a leading man. Um, and yet, you know, he still loses. Right. Magnumora was a huge critic's favorite since can and can capitalize on the moment despite being in a best picture nominee.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:43

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:44

And and what was an early favorite for a foreign language film. Leo DiCaprio, I understand, because he already has one. Okay, that's the only one you can exclude. But in a way, the other four are kind of after the Timothy Chalamet kind of you know um change of tide, you know, uh were on kind of even footing in a way that any of those three could have capitalized on their being, you know, on becoming the favorite, and it was Michael B. Jordan, which I think is in no smart is in no small part due to the SAG win. Yes. You know, I think that was crucial. Yeah, I think it was crucial that's crucial that Magnumora was not nominated for the SAG. You and I, you know, looking back, there are foreign language performances that do win these categories. Think about Marianne Cottiar and LaVeyon Rose, it does happen, but it's it does not happen in the lead acting races if you didn't get a SAG nomination. So if that is is eventually going to be a narrative of the night that a foreign language performance won one of the two uh top uh leading acting awards, they got an eye for the SAG. Yes. That's a big miss for Wagner Mora. He even missed the bathtub. Right. And and and and I I don't know if he made the I don't think he made the um that's another miss. Um and then again, Ethan Hawke couldn't capitalize on his uh his career either. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:57

Um yeah, yeah. So I find that interesting. I think you're right. It's a hundred percent interesting, and I also think it's been a a great year for Best Actor because it was ultra competitive, and I think it was also it also illustrated well the way the dynamics of this Oscar race sort of um fall, which is in phase two, you're only trying to beat your competition, right? And you're it's really much about it's it's very much about you know uh what your advantages are and can you exploit them? And I think um Sinners and Michael B. Jordan's campaign was able to do that. Um and in a way, as you said, that Wagner Moraz wasn't, there was just too many too many shortcomings, same thing with Ethan Hawke. But it's it's also massively interesting because again, it was so competitive that this year one could have made the argument had had timing just been a little bit different. It this race illustrates how timing is everything. If if it was Marty Mauser in 2025's Oscar and it was Bob Dylan in 2026, I think Bob Dylan would have won, you know, um, despite the opera uh ballet commentary. Um if if Jesse Plemens had not been nominated for Power of the Dog, would he would he have got a name for Bugonia? I think he would have. I think he would have. Could he have made things interesting? I think he would have also. You know what I mean? I love that performance. Um it's a great performance, but also Oscars, you know, they like a villain and they like a complicated character and they like a showy performance like that, not unlike, for example, you know, Joaquin's performance in Joker. Um, and so it's massively interesting to think of the different ways. For example, had Leo got a nominated for Cures of the Flower Moon, would he have been snubbed this year? Yeah, probably. He didn't need both of those nominations. You know, his nomination here has everything to do with him being overlooked with Cures of the Flower Moon, right? Um, and so I think it was a fantastic year for Actor because it sort of illustrated how multi-layered the whole idea of an Oscar campaign launching a film and performances into the Oscar conversation is, um, how volatile it is, and how um how separate these different phases are, right? Between launching them, getting into a space where we're actually debating uh who are our favorites, and then when you're finally in that space, right? Um, like I said, Roger Morrow is able to get in, possibly largely due to that Golden Globe win, right? But had he not gotten in and had someone, like I said, like we said, Jesse Plemens gotten in, could it have made it a more um interesting, more um tight race? It's possible. Um so yeah, that that that was my big takeaway. Um great to see Michael there. Um it it was certainly another moment, and maybe we'll talk about this in one of the further uh other categories, but another moment that sort of signified that SAG is very much at the top of the mountain when it comes to dictating the way the acting categories are going to go.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:54

I think you're very right that this year proved that, but I will say last year they still got two wrong in Timothy Shaw. Chalame and uh Demi Moore.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:02

So yeah. Well, maybe you're right. I mean, well, I think they had a bounce back this year.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:06

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:07

Because 2022 they did bangers also. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:10

All four.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:10

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:11

Um, so yeah, I think it was a a very interesting thing, Best Actor.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:16

Um and it was nice to see him have that moment. You know, he's certainly, you know, the future.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:20

Yeah.

Solo Vet Amy Madigan Brings Oscar Home To Ed Harris

SPEAKER_02 1:06:20

Um, in a in a very meaningful way. Yeah. And uh in a very positive way. Right. And sticking with the actings um for a little bit longer. Um, supporting actress was a fascinating race this year between three actresses, all in Warner Brothers films, all of them winning uh separate, you know, uh high honors, the Golden Globe, the Baft, and the SAG. Um Amy Madigan became the favorite um after the SAG win. You and I were betting on Wumi Osaku for the longest time. And unfortunately, we got it wrong. Also, we have to eat Crow. Yeah. Um, we got that wrong. Um, part of the reason I mean, you did say that it was gonna be tough for both for centers to win, both actor and supporting actress. Historically, it is not easy.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:08

It's not easy. Um, and everything every while at once does it. Yes, and what I was gonna say, and yeah, they did it brilliantly three times. Um, but I was what I was gonna say is unfortunately, I couldn't come up with a moment in history where two black actors were able to win those categories or a pair of categories together um for the same movie. You know, I'm we're kind of talking about the idea that you know Octavia Spencer could win for the help, but Viola Davis ends up losing to Meryl Streep, that kind of idea.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:36

Um, and so I thought it would be another historic moment, but that that didn't come to pass. Right. Um, I thought that BAFTA was really gonna be what broke for her. Me too. But the win ended up going to Amy Madigan.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:47

Amy Madigan, who did not get an eye for the BAFTA.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:50

Um, but she did make the short list. Um and you know, I don't know how I feel about it. You know, I I think it's really cool, like I said, that trajectory of that that contention, you know, is uh is is is incredible to witness. Um, but everything was telling me that again, because she was a solo nominee and because it's not the kind of thing they typically go for um for an acting Oscar, that she was gonna be passed up. And that didn't happen. And I have to, I have to think that it ended up having a lot to do with her competition. There were just too many cons about Tiana Taylor winning, you know, not enough credits, you know, kind of spiky, uh prickly character. Um, and then Wimi Musaku, you know, maybe they didn't want to give sinners two acting wins, and Michael B. Jordan had already kind of amassed this momentum that Wimi Musaku wasn't able to to to to have herself because of the SAG loss. Right. I don't know, but it it's a strange win. You know, it is. It's it's a strange win. Like it, yeah. Just even if just looking at it on paper, it's a strange win.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:54

Are we overlooking possibly where the what ended up giving Amy Madigan a slight edge was, for example, that Teyana and Woon Me that there wasn't a strong second, right? So to speak, but instead they were sort of three kind of cobbled up, tied together, right? Right. And in the face of that, maybe the vote for Amy Madigan um ends up winning out. Why? Because she's a former nominee, unlike her other nominees in that category, right? She's not winning, not taking a veteran sentimental value. Um, could it also be because uh, you know, not only is she a veteran, but she's been working for so long. People made a lot of mention about that idea. I think you said 40, 40 years between nominations, which might have been the longest stretch, right? And I'm sure that's that's a pr a very good uh headline to campaign on. Um, the idea that she's Ed Harris's partner, and Ed Harris is um an iconic actor and a really esteemed actor, and has yet to win an Academy Award and has a bunch of nominations. It's kind of a win for their family, exactly, which sometimes happens in supporting, whether it's Jamie Lee Kurt or Solara Dern, it's a win for the artists of that little tiny branch of artists that the Academy recognizes. That tends to happen sometimes. Yeah, 100%. Um, could those have been the things that go for them?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:16

I also think that there uh uh along with what you're saying about there being like a three-way horse and that affecting all of them, as particularly, you know, Sinners in One Battle, that, you know, in terms of Sinners and One Battle being the favorite films, you know, and there there might have been a little bit of a split there in that, you know, when it came to supporting actress, you know, uh you either sided with One Battle or Sinners. Sinners is my favorite, so Woomy gets my vote, or One Battle was my favorite, so Tayana gets my vote, and they kind of vote split it in a way, and that allowed an opening for someone like Amy Manigan for weapons.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:50

Yeah, and and maybe it could also be a factor where if you liked weapons, it was the only category where you could give it a win, right? Versus I part, I think, partly what you're saying here, which is um not only could there be a vote slip, a vote split between Teyana and Wound Me, but also this could be one of the few categories where you're okay not giving it to a sinner's or a one battle.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:14

But here's another thing that I just thought of that I think might have also had some say as to why uh Amy Madigan won, and that's that international voters. They also couldn't I I think that because of the way the category was set up, there wasn't enough of one person grabbing most of the international votes. So, for example, you had two sentimental value actresses, so there might have been a little bit of a vote split there in terms of the international vote, but let's imagine that that's not true. And that there were there was an international vote for sentimental value, it would go to Inga because she's the international actor. Okay. But then I think that too many international actors, I mean, uh too many international voters um probably were passionate about a movie like One Battle After Another. And then Tayana got their vote.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:02

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:02

Or some uh international voters might have re-elected Sinners and Sinners got their vote.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:06

But the fact that Woodme is an international actor act from the UK.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:10

Exactly. So I don't think that there was enough of somebody to get the bulk of international votes that might have put them at the, you know, uh at the top of the pack. And which again allowed an opening for Amy Madigan, who was the domestic favorite.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:25

Yeah, like the home turf favorite in terms of the US. Exactly. I think I think that's something to consider too. And I will say also, it's another bit of how the pendulum swung towards the sag this year, Michael B. Jordan and Amy Madigan. Yeah, right. Um, you know, that did not happen at BAFTA or at Golden Globe. Um, it's interesting because one one thing we kept saying this year was can Amy Madigan really win over Demi. I'm sorry, when Demi Moore lost, right? We we talked about that, right? And so what do you think was the separation there? You just think it was the second nomination, or do you think also this idea, we talk about it, lead bias?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:03

Yes, I I certainly think that there's a big, a big reason is if we're talking about supporting actress is not the same as talking about as actress. That's number one. But number two, I also want to say that I think, you know, the substance is more overt with its sort of, you know, uh makeup and physicality and you know, kind of creature feature of it all, body horror, yeah. You know, body horror of it all in a way that weapons is sinister but entertaining, but not super arthouse, not maybe art house at all. Um, in that you would have people watch The Substance who were just gonna straight out, straight up not like it. You know, and there were there were uh uh ballots supposed to be. Exactly. There were people who, you know, said in the anonymous ballot ballots, if you know you want to read any any uh if you want to read into them at all, that they hated the movie. I think weapons is a more accessible film, you know, just by the kind of film that it is. Um, so I think that helps as well. But certainly the supporting versus lead thing, I think is a big deal.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:07

Now, one thing that I want to say, which is kind of interesting to at least sort of put into context, is that the win for Amy Madigan in Supporting Actress is the first time we have a solo acting win, meaning a a film that only got one nomination, the nomination that it won, right? Since Julianne Moore and still Alice. Yeah, I know. Right. And so I I I do think it's interesting that and before that I believe it's Christopher Plummer. Oh, in beginners. Um, and so I do think I thought it was Penelope Cruz, but yeah, you're right, Christopher Plummer. Um, yeah, Penelope Cruz for Ricky Christina Barcelona. Oh no, I think that was a little, yeah, a little bit right next to Christopher Plummer. But I do think that there's this idea that being an older actor, a veteran actor, and being an actor who like Julianne Moore has just never won might have might have helped, right? Um it didn't help Demi Moore. It didn't help Demi. But that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:02

Like it doesn't help an actor in their 60s, you know, who knows if I'm gonna get this chance again, they still said nah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:07

I guess that's what I'm trying to say is I'm trying to, as ridiculous as it sounds, I'm trying to say it's easier for Demi Moore to lose that category because she's not the same type of veteran that Amy Madigan or Christopher Plummer are on their second nominations, right? Both of them, right? Unlike Demi Moore's first, but also the fact that at the end of the day, the substance is gonna have a win, and the substance is a five-time, I think a five-time nominee, right? It's almost a little bit easier to get it done, certainly when you've been there before, like Christopher Plummer or Amy Madigan, um, even Julianne Moore, obviously, you have so many nominations before that win. Um, it's easier to get it done in supporting, but it's also easier to get it done when you're by yourself. It's almost like there's a there's a a heightened urgency that the substance did not have because at the end the substance was one of the most talked-about films of the year and a best picture nominee. Um, so I'm I guess in a weird sort of way, I'm saying had Weapons scored that best picture nomination, maybe Amy Madigan would not have won. Um, in a in a weird sort of way. Um, but yeah, I think that was another fascinating race this year.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:11

It was absolutely uh uh I felt so convinced that I was gonna be Womie Messaku. Yeah, I think you and I really felt that.

Documentary and International Film Winners Decry World at War

SPEAKER_01 1:16:18

Yes, I I I yeah, you're right. Um, and so I think the other acting um award went to Jesse Buckley and was very predictable, but I think she gave a very impassioned speech, which we all knew she was gonna do. Yeah, she's great and I am not. I do want to sort of bridge our conversation on supporting actress a little bit. I want to talk about that international thing that you're talking about because I saw it play out at least in one category that to me was borderline shocking, but the more I thought about it, the more it makes sense. And I'll preface it by saying that I think Netflix ended up winning seven awards um in total that night, um, which is actually, I think it's studio high. I don't think it's ever broken seven. Um we had predicted we had predicted it to break seven because we had the singers winning. We had predicted it to break seven and get a high of eight, um, which would be a studio high. Um, and the one that it ended up losing that we predicted, which by the way, I mentioned to you that I felt nervous about. Yes, was a win for I'm sorry, was excuse me, was a loot a loss in Best Documentary. Um Best Documentary, the favorite, our prediction um was for The Perfect Neighbor from Netflix, um, from double nominee Gita, who was sort of had a historic moment by getting two nominations, a nomination for Documentary Short and a nomination for documentary. It did not come to pass, and she lost, unfortunately. And the win ended up going to Mr. Nobody against Putin. And I think this was I think mostly a surprise to some people.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:47

Yeah, 100% the favor was the perfect neighbor, and and and but by a good distance, the number two was uh Mr. Nobody, and that's a lot of it due to it winning the the BAFTA.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:59

The BAFTA. The BAFTA. Obviously, we've talked about in previous episodes. You can check them out, but we knew it was going to be a tight one between them. We knew it was coming up um strong at the final minute, especially everything that was going on with um Denmark and um Greenland, and it's a Denmark Danish co-production was submitted for foreign film from Denmark, did not get into the short list, did not get a nomination either, but the nomination for documentary was major. Uh the reason why I bring it up is because I think that you and I would agree that what pushes it over the top is the international film. I agree. Do you agree with that? I agree, yeah. Okay. Same kind of thing that we're saying has played out in in other places. But this year we had a new rule, quote unquote. The new rule being that you cannot vote for a winner unless you see all of them. Unless you see all of them. And so, in my mind, something that I have a suspicion played out in documentary film was that a significant portion of voters did not see all the movies in that particular category. And so when you have someone maybe like Amy Madigan, who's able to get in there when the international vote is sort of canceling each other out in some places, or um, you know, maybe when Michael B. Jordan, who maybe isn't the most international choice and he didn't win BAFTA, when he's able to win, it's because a lot of voters were able to see all the films and were therefore eligible to see all of them. In documentary, this is the only place where they're nominated. They're not gonna be two or three-time nominees. Documentary is gonna nominate for one category, best documentary, and that's it. Right, right. So there's little incentive.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:36

There's an inherent bias.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:38

Like I'm gonna watch the narrative features, I don't have time for the documentary features. There's little incentive because they don't have uh multiple nominations, there's little incentive to watch them. Because if you watch them, you're only well informed in one category, versus if you watch Frankenstein, you're well informed from eight to nine, Pari Supreme the same, handed the same. And so, because of that, I think voters leave it for last or neglect it. And in this year, having neglected it or overlooked it or left it for last, they very quickly saw that they were just became ineligible to vote for it. And so they may have seen The Perfect Neighbor, it may have been their favorite, it may have been the movie they decided to vote for, but because they had not seen the other ones, like Cutting Through Rocks, which didn't even have an appropriate release, they were deemed ineligible to watch it. And what I think is that more international films, more excuse me, more international voters participated in this category and committed to watching those films. And because they committed to watching those films, maybe because they have a different focus or a different priority setting, or maybe just they're just more interested, or maybe they were more widely available to them throughout the year through festivals or programming, etc., they were able to participate in this category at a higher clip, and then therefore the race breaks for Mr. Nobody against Putin.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:53

I think that's an excellent point. I would just say that you know, we were hearing from you know the uh the press and variety and the Hollywood Reporter that voters were not because it's the honor system, I think, in a way. I don't know how much they're, you know, uh being policed. Exactly. Uh to, you know, see all the nominees before voting in a category. We had heard of some people who, you know, just check marked their little box and they were able to vote for the category, even though they haven't seen all the films. So I guess your reasoning, if that's true, um, your reasoning would would would imply that there was a lot of loyalty to the honor system, which I don't necessarily buy. You know, just you know, human beings are not that not that way. Um so that's the only that's that's the only caveat that I would say, you know. It it's it's it's a fascinating argument, and I think it sounds very plausible, but what about you know, all those people that we were hearing were just voting, even though they hadn't seen it in all the films?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:51

We don't have experience with the actual platform, so we can't speak to it. I would love to see the platform um at work because I do feel like there may be something there where just more international voters outnumbered the the voters that were based in the US, um, who maybe would have favored the perfect neighbor, but just did not get a chance to vote on it. Um so I thought that was an interesting topic. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:14

I think that's I think that's a I think that's absolutely astute, um, and certainly one of the shockers of the night.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:19

No, I do think it was a great speech, a really pointed speech. Um, and it was one of my favorite speeches of the night. Um, and I and I think it's a worthy winner too. I'm sad that Gita wasn't able to uh get the win, but I'm also I'm also fairly confident that Gita will get the win in the future. Um that being said, she did make history, she had uh two nominations for two excellent work, um two excellent pieces of work. I wanna bridge that with another sort of um very pointed moment, um, another very pointed speech, which was the speech for international film when Hakuim Cheer ends up winning and just uh um very quickly, um, Sentimental ended up be being the favorite at the end, um especially with all those nominations, the BAFTA win, first win for Norway, very much the way we had called it, Brazil winning back to back. It's just really, really difficult, really unlikely. Um, and when they have an opportunity to give it to a country that hasn't won before, especially one as well positioned at Sentimental Value, with four acting nominations, a directing nomination, and a screenplay nomination. You and I, especially Mia, I had sort of said maybe this is a moment where Panahi can sneak in with everything that had going on with Iran at that moment, but that didn't come to pass. Um Kim Jir definitely had very pointed words um for the state of the world about appropriate words. I I can kind of bridge that between that and then the documentary feature winner, Mr. Nobody Against Putin. But I thought that was I thought that was interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:42

Absolutely. Um and the secret agent, like you said, it was was uh was an early favorite after that Globe win, and it certainly seemed to be the favorite amongst regional critics. But uh Sentimental Valley was just not gonna walk out empty-handed. Yeah. And you and I said it on our last episode if Stellan Scarf Scarborough's not winning this, then it absolutely has to win foreign language film because how it's just you can't give it zero. Especially since in a in a year of five, I think we're in agreement that those would have been the five films. Absolutely. Marty, uh, Sentimental Value, Hamnet, Center's one battle.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:12

Maybe, I guess, uh unless you want to knock out the foreign film, maybe, but I think you're right. With nine nominations, it's it's very it's a very muscular choice for a option.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:21

You know, speaking of who could have got on that spot, Frankenstein will without a directing nomination and with only one acting nomination versus a film that got a directing nomination and four.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:32

It's possible, but I I I see where I see what you're saying. Um, and I think I definitely broke it for sentimental, but also just again, timing. It's always, always timing. Very difficult to give it to the secret agent when I'm still here won this whole year. As regional critics were handing out international film, they didn't give it away. The majority of them did not give it to I'm Still Here. Right. Um, so it's just a matter of timing. Yeah. Yeah. Had I'm still here not one last year, would the secret agent have won? Hands down. Hands down the secret agent would have won.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:02

As long as Sentimental was winning something else.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:03

Yeah, I'll give you that. As long as we can split, and I don't know why they wouldn't. I mean, last year they gave I'm still here foreign film and Amelia Perez, you know, supporting actress and a song. So I think there's room to split it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:16

And finally, one battle was the big winner, winning six Academy Awards. It won Best Picture, it won best director, it won best adapted screenplay. Um six was sort of on par with what we've seen in the last few years. Um, Oppenheimer won seven, I believe. Everything everywhere won seven, Honora won six. Uh, I believe not actually five, because it couldn't it couldn't win six. Um, so uh that made sense. And I think the fact that there were two joggernauts between Sinners being the most nominated film ever and one battle, I think that might have taken some of that, you know, that possible seventh Oscar might have gotten somewhere like cinematography or something. Um, but very much in the tie that we were expecting. Obviously, there was no question that this was PTA's year. Um I mean, Sinners made it interesting at the end. I guess a little bit, but you know, in in reality, no question about it. You know, Paul Thomas Anderson is a hero of ours. Um, it's incredibly beautiful to see him have this very deserved moment. But you know, PTA's work will stand the test of time and not in the slightest because of, you know, whatever awards it might win or an Oscar, whether that be an Oscar or anything else. He's not a filmmaker that does films for any uh award sake, but still very uh very very beautiful to see him have this moment. Um, very deserved, best film of the year. Um, and uh yeah, you know, I I think uh that kind of you know made this Oscar season a little bit more special, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:46

I agree. Um, I think it's a very deserving film. Um it's great to see him finally have that moment. He sort of broke the PDA curse, I guess, when he won adapted screenplay, as Cassandra Kulacunda said she won one before him, um, but he won screenplay. Um he mentioned how you forgot to shout out his cast at one point. Um you know, it's uh happy to have it. Best doesn't exist. Um you know, uh he he you know said you making a cat you make a guy work really hard for this. We're talking about uh an individual and artist who had, including this year, 14 nominations between producing, directing, writing, all the way back to what 1997, right? So certainly one of the oldest oldest gentlemen there. Certainly, you know, um that's beyond Christopher Nolan by by a few years. Um so certainly someone of his a status had not won one yet, you know, his number was eventually gonna come up, one would hope. Um, I did think we mentioned it on our uh on our Twitter. Um, you can follow us at Academy Anon. But uh the win for PTA in any category this year, uh let alone all three. Um finally, you know, sets him apart from artists like Robert Altman and Federico Fellini, who have had so many nominations um in directing or directing and writing, um, and never scored a win. Um directing, writing, and producing um Robert Altman. Um and so it was great to see him sort of not be in the history books alongside Mavericks, you know, icons like Altman and Fellini, and to get a competitive win as opposed to an honorary Oscar like those two Titans did. Um I think, you know, we have to talk about Warner Brothers um and the fact that this was such a important year for Warner Brothers. Um, of course, they had a terrible year last year. We talked about it, um, even though they got Dune some wins and a best picture nomination, but they completely dominated, made history of Sinners most nominations, 13 nominations for Paul Thomas Anderson's film, the most any of his films I've ever gotten.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:58

Um, they score picture director screenplay, as you said, but also, you know, there's not a huge trajectory for Warner Brothers films winning this award. And so it joins films like Argo and the Departed and Um Williandar Baby, Unforgiven. These are the most recent um Warner Brothers best picture winners. Of course, it comes at a moment when Warner Brothers is is bowing out. Um, but Warner Brothers just decimated this year. I mean, in total, it's six wins for one battle, four for sinners, that's ten. Weapons gives it eleven. And if you include F1, which they helped distribute theatrically, that's 12. Right. And that's just a massive haul. And I think possibly even one of their biggest hauls. Um, you have to look at, for example, a movie like My Fair Lady in the 60s, that's their most winningest film, or one of their most winningest films with eight, right? One battle couldn't get there, neither could Sinners. Um, but you have to look at something like 2004, last time they dominated like that. Remember 2004, Million Dollar Baby, one best picture, right? Picture director, two actings, and the aviator just completely took so many tech awards, including cinematography and cosmic design, and it won for Kate Blanchett. I think that was a year where they scored like 10 between all their movies. Um, a year like in the 70s, French Connection and uh I think Clockwork Orange is there. I think they ended up scoring like maybe nine wins that year between French Connection and include and summer of 42. And so this was just a historic year for Warner Brothers in terms of the Oscars for what is also a historic moment for this industry and for that huge legacy studio. Um, and I think that that's that's going to be written in the history books that these wins that this historic night is concurrent with this moment, yeah, um, which is scary and which we're going to see, you know, how it develops in the coming months and the coming years. Um something I will say that I I I love your commentary on is this time last year. Do you remember what I was saying?

unknown 1:31:00

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:01

Do you? No. Okay, and this is on record. So anyone can hear this, please. Our our previous episodes are up. And if you're ever curious, please do. On our post-mortem after Onora finally wins, one of the first things that I said was, you know, I think the win for Sean Baker, a massive win, where he gets even an editing win. He wins as an editor, not just as a producer, director, you know what I mean, or uh a writer. He wins as an editor. It just to me, it kind of threw the rule book out there. And I sort of said, it doesn't really matter what your history it is, it just matters timing, the moment. Um, and I think I ended up saying that, you know, the likelihood is that Paul Thomas Anderson was never going to win. That he would never win. That's what I said a year ago. Um yeah, and so I couldn't be happier to say that I was wrong. Right. Um, and that, you know, these things are largely unpredictable, and anything that can happen will happen. And um it's a great thing to see in this instance, even though I'm sure it will exist in other instances where it's a very disappointing thing to see. Um, so nobody knows anything. Um, but I guess in this is a year where it sort of says, yeah, his legacy does matter. Everything he's done has has mattered and has brought him to this point. I also want to iterate that, like, very much what you're seeing is you're seeing these individuals who have had a large hand in crafting contemporary appreciation for cinema and for the art form finally get a chance to go on that stage, whether they've been industry titans like Christopher Nolan or Paul Thomas Anderson or have been on the fringes that everyone has been paying attention to, like Sean Baker. You do have to play by their rules, right? You know, Christopher Nolan cannot win an Oscar unless he gets a bunch of acting nominees and he gets a SAG win. That's just he sort of has to he sort of has to evolve into a filmmaker that's able to meet that thing where they want him to do. They want him to be able to be an actor's director. And they want a film of Christopher Nolan to do the impossible and win a SAG Ensemble Award. In the same way, in my opinion, where it's an amazing win for one battle, and I think it's a very deserving winner. But when I put it against those movies, The Departed, uh Unforgiven, The French Connection, there's DNA there. You know, this is a Paul Thomas Anderson film, but it's also very much a Warner Brothers film. There are car chases, there are guns, there's violence, there's uh sex, there's commentary, right? It's a very muscular piece, right? Um, even if it does have its subversive elements that it's very much a Paul Thomas Anderson picture, you he he sort of was able to do under in his terms what they've wanted him to do, which is deliver a big blockbuster Warner Brothers film, which uh with a bunch of car chases. And sort of same thing with Sean Baker, where like, yes, Sean Baker's able to get that win, but he had to become, in my opinion, a more pointed filmmaker with his commentary, right? Um, a commentary that speaks to, in my opinion, an international discussion, not unlike Oppenheimer, not unlike one bad after another. Um, those films may be set in the US, but the ramifications for what they mean as art and the discussion they're having um in their historical moment, in their historical context, has massive meaning for the international community and and certainly for the international film community. And that I think is aces for a Nora that even wins the Palme d'Or. Right. And so I think those are it's interesting to observe those things, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:35

I think that's very well said, and I I think that's very astute um and very true. Um, I'll just, you know, repeat again that I don't think this Oscar win is the pinnacle of PTA's career. Um, you know, I think the Oscars are, you know, problematic to say the least, um, and that PTA's legacy will uh you know stand the test of time and and and and outlive all of us. Um uh but you know, it's just nice for him to get his you know due flowers um in whatever capacity, whether that be the Oscars or something else, you know, um any awards body. Um, and uh like I said, PTA the master and uh the most rebound of rebounds for Warner Brothers. Yeah. Um uh and and and and bittersweet, right? Yes, very bittersweet.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:26

Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and and I think I can't wait to see how this discussion evolves into next year. Um, a lot of patterns we've observed, shifts in in in the industry, for example. I mean, the sag is now down twice from a sag ensemble win. They've been off twice. Kind of interesting. Got a new category, be interesting to see how that plays out in casting. Stunt is coming out too. New category coming in, phasing out uh the way the Oscars have been traditionally presented on uh basic on basic with ABC, for example. We'll see what happens there. I think it's 2029. Is that 2029? I'm not sure, I think. But we're certainly on the last couple of instances where this is going to be the case, um, that it's on basic. Um, but I agree with you. There's something incredibly bittersweet about it, and also hugely preoccupying, right? In terms of what it's going to look like. Um yeah, um, I do think that there are some overarching trends, and I wonder if we're gonna be able to see that next year or maybe guess that into next year. You know, some filmmakers who maybe are going to deliver um very important work, very urgent work, work that does not shy away from saying something, um, and whether that's something to look look for, um, whether we're going to maybe go back a little bit and and maybe start um rewarding some more some newer voices. Um, I remember um when um The Daniels won for Everything Everywhere. We've it's been a it's been a while since that. We've been rewarding filmmakers with longer trajectories. Um it'll be interesting to see if that holds up.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:10

Um I do, I do like, I don't know if you would agree, but I do like that it feels like we're entering into this moment of filmmaking. Not unlike, you know, uh a moment that we grew up in, which was, you know, um the what do they call it? The Ots, you know, was it the Ots? No, or the the 2000s, you know, when we had films like No Country for All Men and The Departed winning Oscars and and having a huge chunk of the conversation, you know, and uh the darker history gets, the films tend to imitate that. And I wonder how we'll see that surface this year. Yeah, right? 100%. I 100% agree. But we may be heading into that territory. Do you agree? Where we're we're not gonna be getting too many optimistic best fiction players.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:58

Yeah, but even even just over the last few years, it's hard to see the academy that gave very deserved Oscars to, you know, one battle. And and I certainly think Honora Um and Oppenheimer was a big movie for several people, kind of stand alongside giving an Oscar to Green Book, which was like 2018. Right. You know, so even though 2018 wasn't that long ago, it feels like we're in new territory. Yeah, it feels like it doesn't feel like Green Book would could win now.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:31

Yeah. I like I said, I mean, unless we're gonna come up to this moment, and again, maybe in a year I'm I'm swelling my words. It doesn't feel like what the academy at large wants to embrace right now is blind optimism. Yeah. Um, I think we really want to scrutinize, you know, well, there was coda also. Which again is I I would argue that that's that is going on during a more optimistic moment. Yeah, right. Yeah. A moment where there's a little bit more hope as to where we can get to, as a lot of fear as to where we're at. Yeah. Um, and it'll be interesting to see. This is always a conversation, right? It'll be interesting to see how that shows up this year. Yeah. Um, and also what film, what new voices are gonna stand out, um, what uh voices from the past are gonna re-emerge, what voices are finally gonna get their due. Um, a lot of things to look forward to. Very unprecedented times, very scary times. Um and the art and the cinema will reflect that. Yes, right? As it always does. Yeah. Um, and so this is our final episode for this season, season two of Academy Anonymous. We want to thank all of you listeners for sticking with us. We've enjoyed covering the race, we've enjoyed exploring um everything that uh has happened up to this moment. We've enjoyed analyzing it, um, trying to decipher what it means, what it could lead to, predicting what outcomes are. I will say, I think it's poor to say how did we end up doing, I think, for our overall total, less than what we wanted.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:02

Unfortunately, we got five wrong. Right. Um, and you know, that's the we we said this in the episode when we predicted the nominees. It's always more fun to predict the nominations because honestly, I'll give you 100%. If you just copied Gold Derby, you would have gotten three wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:19

You would have gotten three freaking wrong. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And we took a chance in some categories like visual effects, uh, which bet us in the butt. Uh we did. But you know, that's why it's a little less fun. Yeah, everything is is is more crystallized, it's more cemented. You know, the real fun is can you guess the five? Can you guess the five nominees in each other?

SPEAKER_01 1:40:41

I would argue that's the real challenge, too. I mean, I mean, guessing what, 23 winners? Separates the men from the boys. Yeah. Um, you want to be an adult in the room, then you have to be able to predict um the range of nominees throughout, and it's as you said, more fun. Um, so we did end up getting a little bit lower than we wanted, kind of happy with some calls that we didn't make, stuck to our guns with the singers, switched to the girl cracked. Um, you know, we matched certain people. We had a lot of people like us had the reversal of casting and cinematography and the swap. Um, and so uh yeah, it's it's it's been a great season. We want to thank you all for joining us. Um, we're signing off for this season.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:23

Um look for us around Cannes. Um, we'll be going to CAN. Um, I think right now we're thinking about how we're going to be sharing with you guys our experiences at Cannes. Maybe we'll we'll be more active on Twitter. You might see us, uh, you might you know hear from us there. Yeah. Um, or maybe we'll do a quick episode before we leave for our trip. Kind of just you spitballing like uh titles that we think could be on it. But we'll definitely be on the ground at CAN, seeing what this year has to offer. Can has, you know, the the you know, whatever shows up at CAN, you can expect people to be talking about it for the next 12 months. Right. Um, so it's always fun. It's always fun to be there. Um, looking forward to it and to sharing with you guys our experiences. Yeah. So look for us around that time.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:07

We'll be taking a brief uh ATIS from the podcast. We will still be um uh catching up with everyone on social media at Academy None as our Twitter handle, and we will try to keep uh the website a little bit more up to date and um drop any news there if we can. Um, you know, maybe we will do a a little bit of a prediction, projection for Can. Um we'll discuss ways to get you guys involved into um the things we see. Um then of course there's a lot to cover already um as we speak. Uh Project Helmary has come out, it's done well. There's been some talk there. Yeah, um, South by Southwest, Sundance. These are all things that we are going to cover um in season three of the Academy Anonymous podcast. Um, so thank you for joining us. We look forward to uh sharing our thoughts with everyone next season um in just a little bit of time.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:59

Um thank you so much for sticking with us, hearing us out, uh, going on this journey with us. We appreciate all of you, all of our listeners. And uh till next time, I'm Joseph. And I'm Jules, and it's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:21

If you've been enjoying the Academy Anonymous podcast and want to support the work we're doing, there's a voluntary support link in the show notes. Totally optional. Just a way to help us keep the podcast going. Thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:36

The music on this episode, entitled Cool Cats, was graciously provided by Kevin McLeod and Incompitech.com. Licensed under Creative Commons by Attribution 3.0. HTTP colon forward slash forward slash Creative Commons.org forward slash licenses forward slash by forward slash three point zero.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:06

Disclaimer. The Academy Anonymous Podcast is in no way affiliated or endorsed by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.